Wow...

[thistlechaser]

I don't even know how to describe this (LJ post by some amazing person I don't know). Wonderfully written, scary, accurate... and fuel to further my wishes to live elsewhere.

Links to it have shown up in lots of other LJs (as evidenced by the few hundred comments it has), but I'm posting it here to help spread it further.

I can't even pick out one quote that worries me most in it, but here's one of them:

"And as of Friday all faculty and staff have been ordered by the district (which gets its directions from the state, which gets its directives from the US Department of Education) not to speak against the war or the government in the presence of our students. Not asked, ordered."

"..."

God forbid we give children an alternate side to this so that they could *gasp* think about it and come to their own opinions...

Grr, mutter, grr.

Comments

[mallen.livejournal.com]

There's a huge difference between "an alternate side" and just one side.

I'm all for teachers talking about the war with their students, but teachers using their inherent position of authority to attack and demonize the United States and/or military personnel isn't really very cool to me.

[loneguardian.livejournal.com]

Frankly, I don't think teachers should be allowed to give an opinion for or against the war in a teaching setting, simply because it's not part of the class unless it's a government-type one. Being for war isn't evil, nor is being against it, but I don't think either has a place in the classroom.

And you know... You're my friend, but damnit. If you hate this country and this government so much, why the hell -don't- you move out? If it scares you, move. People up and flee the country all the time. And it's not the -country's- fault if people -choose- to not tollerate other races. Don't even start.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

Speaking only for myself: I love this country. I hate what's being done to it. I'll fight it, even if in small ways. But I am not, and I repeat not, going to get forced out of it; I have a responsibility to work to make sure it doesn't become something /other/ than my country.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. I think teachers should talk about both sides, but promote neither (if that's possible...). I think putting forth their own personal agenda is wrong, but I think doing what the government is at least as wrong.

[loneguardian.livejournal.com]

I agree. I don't like half the things that happen in this country, but I still love it. What irks me is when people go on about 'another reason why I should leave' and complain about it. Do what you can and hope it's enough, ne?

[kajidoh.livejournal.com]

Saying that someone should leave the country if they dislike it is like saying someone should drop out of school because they don't like it, or quit their job because they don't like it, or should stop wiping their butt because they don't like it.

America's a dirty place, but it's cleaner than others.

And it IS the country's fault if people choose not to tolerate other races, which is what this country's about. It's state instituted, whether we know ir or not or like it or not. Orginizations like the KKK and the Neo Nazi movement are terrorism in themselves, and the nation does nothing to stop them at all. But teachers can't discuss war? While a handful of losers can make others feel bad about the way they were born? If you ask me, that's just stupid.

I wish Bush would concern himself with domestic terrorism a little. You know, a while back I saw an article about a boy in Arkansas who was forced to read the bible during class and was punished because he was gay...hat's off the point of racism, but the school district was only pressured by Gay activist groups, the country did NOTHING to protect this boy who had his civil liberties taken away.

I stray from talking about the 60's because those races things were overly dealt with, but it doesn't mean that racism is over. And it probably will be a long time before it is gone from our shors. But the country has enough power to quell the KKK and Neo Nazis and even the Black Panthers or something from their racist hate speech, so much so that it's no more than idle whispering like a bunch of middle school girls tittering in the bathroom.

I suggest you apologize to your friend.

I've looked into this extensively...

[batratblue.livejournal.com]

And haven't found a bit of supporting evidence either for 'great multitudes of missing muslims' in an area in the nation which has the highest density of them, nor have I found any evidence of any authority telling teachers to 'hush it up'.

It saddens me that people so distrust their government that they are willing to believe such a Hitlerian mass-round-up of a minority group could happen without any word getting out save a single post on a livejournal, of all places.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Frankly, I don't think teachers should be allowed to give an opinion for or against the war in a teaching setting

No opinions works for me. However. I do believe that they should present information on all sides of the issue.

If you hate this country and this government so much, why the hell -don't- you move out?

A couple reasons:

The biggest: Because if we're lucky, in under four years we'll have someone new in office. Chances are it'll be someone better.

Smaller, more personal one: I *love* California. It's like its own little country within the US. You can put money on the stats from that LJ post (more than 50% of Americans say that the First Amendment goes too far / 60% of Americans feel that not only is this war just, but that to speak against it is a treasonous crime) darned well do *not* apply here.

If this was Thistle's World and I could wave my hand and change things, I'd make California into its own country.

And it's not the -country's- fault if people -choose- to not tollerate other races. Don't even start.

Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. What makes the country if not its people? The laws are set by its people, the officials are elected by its people. It's not the mountains and the grasslands that make the country. (Or am I missing your point?)

Re: I've looked into this extensively...

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

And haven't found a bit of supporting evidence either for 'great multitudes of missing muslims' in an area in the nation which has the highest density of them, nor have I found any evidence of any authority telling teachers to 'hush it up'.

The first part I'll agree with you on. I'm not the type who thinks that the government bugs all phone calls or is out to get me or anything. I'd *hope* that there would be at least some news sources out there that would be willing to run stories on large numbers of missing anyones.

I'll disagree with you on the second part though. I had two people (friends of teachers) talk to me off-LJ about my shock over teachers being told not to disagree, and they said that that word actually came down a while ago. Would you expect to find written evidence of this? (Honest question, I've never tried looking for this sort of thing before.)

It saddens me that people so distrust their government that they are willing to believe such a Hitlerian mass-round-up of a minority group could happen without any word getting out save a single post on a livejournal, of all places.

While I don't believe the government goes through my home computer files while I'm at work, I do believe that inherently it is more wrong/evil/bad than good. Especially in times like these, it makes it easier to believe that they might just do something like that. However, I can't realistically believe that they'd be able to pull it off with not one single media outlet making a peep about it though...

Re: I've looked into this extensively...

[batratblue.livejournal.com]

I'll disagree with you on the second part though. I had two people (friends of teachers) talk to me off-LJ about my shock over teachers being told not to disagree, and they said that that word actually came down a while ago. Would you expect to find written evidence of this? (Honest question, I've never tried looking for this sort of thing before.)

Yes, actually, I would, because the same sort of people who stand up and scream in public about other things would seize on this if it was nationwide. The only ones doing so are only linking to that LJ page, nowhere else...And that LJ page shut down all comments as soon as people started asking for proof, references, and names.

I would be very surprised if this was not something that started out with DOE saying 'We'd prefer if teachers avoided discussing the issue of the current war so as to avoid controversy and potential problems in the classroom.', and got twisted and reinterpreted along the way (since it seems to be word of mouth) into 'Don't speak out against the war, the government say so.'



While I don't believe the government goes through my home computer files while I'm at work, I do believe that inherently it is more wrong/evil/bad than good. Especially in times like these, it makes it easier to believe that they might just do something like that. However, I can't realistically believe that they'd be able to pull it off with not one single media outlet making a peep about it though...

As I said, it saddens me that people are willing to believe this is something our government would do. On the other hand, I find that most people who believe our government is a vicious, evil monolith (whirling vortex of pure evil, anyone?) really haven't seen how astoundingly ineffective and inefficient our government is. This is why I don't believe in conspiracy theories...Our government doesn't have its shit wired that tight. They screw up all over, left hand rarely knows what right hand is doing, the parties are often at each others' throats, various politicians are repeatedly proven to be ludicrously corrupt and undercutting other politicians...The consensus and coordination for a giant conspiracy just doesn't exist.

Yes, we could declare martial law and we could intern Arab-Americans. We did it during WW2 to Japanese-Americans. We couldn't do it secretly then, we couldn't do it secretly now. There's no place to store that many people out of sight. And WW2 proved that it was actually nonproductive. It increased the likelihood of ethnic-Americans acting against the government. It meant that any activities made were more likely to be ruthless and suicidal, rather than peaceful protests.

Again, I'm saddened that people are so ready to believe these things. Witness your tirade last week about Bush 'taking a vacation', when in fact he did no such thing. He spoke to diplomats from over twenty nations while he was in Camp David, and was intimately involved in what was going on. The presidency isn't a thing that stops at 5 o'clock, gets slid into a desk drawer and ignored until 8am.

Nevertheless, it's astounding how much we love to second-guess and armchair-quarterback the decisions of people who have a hell of a lot more access to accurate information than we do.

[loneguardian.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. What makes the country if not its people? The laws are set by its people, the officials are elected by its people. It's not the mountains and the grasslands that make the country. (Or am I missing your point?)

You are, indeed, missing my point. Yes, people have a right to vote and set laws and elect officials, sure, but that's on a basis of who bothers to get off their lazy ass and vote. The people themselves aren't told how to think and behave by a majority vote from other people. If people want to leave, they leave. If they want to be for or against war, they're free to do so. And sadly, some choose to harass other citizens until perhaps they fear for their lives and leave. It's not the country to blame if people go and vanish, it's people, because every single country on earth is like that.

And don't go trying to tell me it's the government. That's been covered in another comment thread, and my hat's off to how clearly and intelligently that was worded. Thank you.

[loneguardian.livejournal.com]

If the government put its hand into every single civil rights case, people would complain saying the government is too involved. Besides, I've had the whole 'freedom to express yourself' and 'racial equality' thrown at me so damn much recently I'm really wondering why you people don't stick up for the hate-groups too. After all, isn't it 'intollerant' to not listen to THEIR freedom of expression and whatnot?

Point of the matter is, humans will always hold grudges, will always do stupid things to others because of race, gender, or sexuality. It's not the government's job to treat us all like a bunch of little kids and watch everything we do. It's OUR job to deal with our own problems.

I'll express my opinion if I like. I'm sorry if how I feel hurts Thistle, yes, for I wasn't trying to flame her or anything. I asked for an explanation, and I got one. I see no need to apologize.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the thoughts, rainenkajidoh and loneguardian, and for trying to defend me, rainenkajidoh, but I really should have gone with one of my first two impulses: Either not posting the original post at all, or posting it and doing something I never did before: Turning off the option to leave a comment.

It's not that I don't want to hear anyone's opinion, it's that I don't like to see people fight (even if it's only a debate or a disagreement). One of the worst things for me about this whole issue is that to me it appears that everyone is just looking to fight over this. I know that's not exactly correct, but that's how it feels. I think I'm going to go back to not posting about the issue, just to keep my little corner of the world more peaceful.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

Not that you want opinions or anything, but I'd ruther you wrote about it but just left comments off... If you wanted to. 'Cause I'm interested in how and why people think, and especially my friends (or at least acquaintances, whatever).

But, um, shutting up.

Re:

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

*chuckles* Thanks. :)