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thistlechaserSince some people had said Kill Bill was good, I attempted to watch it tonight. Ugh. It was about as close to my definition of "good" as murder by a pickaxe is. I watched it for a half-hour to give it a fair chance, then gave up on it. In those 30 minutes I saw these oh-so-logical and
So let's see. It started with a wonderfully detailed (note the sarcasm) viewing of a woman who had been beaten bloody being tended to by the man who tortured her. Then we get a nice close viewing of him shooting her. Or maybe he shot himself, who knows! Whoever laid out the camera shot was more interested in showing the splattering blood.
Then next we watch two women have a knife and karate fight through the house. And what stops it? The death of one of them? The cops? Nope! The one woman's daughter comes home, so they just stop fighting and hide the knives behind their backs so the girl won't see them. Whisky Tango Foxtrot, over? Of course it ends with the women killing each other in front of this kid anyway (four years old, what the HELL were the parents thinking even letting her on the set? Gods.).
Then the next scene. A chick is in a coma. One man sells the rights to RAPE her for all of $20. Luckily she woke up out of the coma (because a mosquito bit her) and so, after being in the coma for four years she kicks two guys' asses and then kills them. That's right. The moment she wakes up after years of being in a coma, she kills people. And guess what! We get to see it close up!
And the final, and perhaps most lovely (sarcasm alert!) scene: A whole church full of people get shot to death. Typical fat white cop wearing sunglasses arrives. Comes in. Quite visibly lusts over the dead pregnant woman with a chalk line drawn around her. Then guess what! She's not dead! She spits blood in his face! So somehow these cops had no idea she was alive, they drew a damned chalk outline around her and never checked her pulse?
I turned it off at that point. I have not one single idea how anyone could have liked that movie, not unless they just get off on the ideas of abusing women, beating them, raping them, and watching them cut each other to death. Quentin Tarantino must have issues so big you could eclipse the sun with them. He should get therapy. Fast. I hope he's on some kind of medication.
For dinner I tried Gardenburger's non-chicken BBQ chicken patties. I think they were good, but it was really hard to tell. The BBQ sauce was that kind that's so strong and tangy that you literally can't taste anything else after it, so I have no idea if the chicken tasted good or not. It's amazing how they can make it look so much like chicken though -- it "flakes" just right. I over-microwaved it, which also didn't help. I have one more patty left in the box, I'll probably eat it some time. (If I don't, it'll be because of the BBQ sauce, not because of the chicken/soy.)
It's amazing they can make such a good fake meat out of soy. It reminds me of the food replicators on Star Trek, and it also makes me wonder why more people aren't eating it. If it can pass for meat, and it's much better for you than meat, and from what I've seen so far it's the same price as meat...
So let's see. It started with a wonderfully detailed (note the sarcasm) viewing of a woman who had been beaten bloody being tended to by the man who tortured her. Then we get a nice close viewing of him shooting her. Or maybe he shot himself, who knows! Whoever laid out the camera shot was more interested in showing the splattering blood.
Then next we watch two women have a knife and karate fight through the house. And what stops it? The death of one of them? The cops? Nope! The one woman's daughter comes home, so they just stop fighting and hide the knives behind their backs so the girl won't see them. Whisky Tango Foxtrot, over? Of course it ends with the women killing each other in front of this kid anyway (four years old, what the HELL were the parents thinking even letting her on the set? Gods.).
Then the next scene. A chick is in a coma. One man sells the rights to RAPE her for all of $20. Luckily she woke up out of the coma (because a mosquito bit her) and so, after being in the coma for four years she kicks two guys' asses and then kills them. That's right. The moment she wakes up after years of being in a coma, she kills people. And guess what! We get to see it close up!
And the final, and perhaps most lovely (sarcasm alert!) scene: A whole church full of people get shot to death. Typical fat white cop wearing sunglasses arrives. Comes in. Quite visibly lusts over the dead pregnant woman with a chalk line drawn around her. Then guess what! She's not dead! She spits blood in his face! So somehow these cops had no idea she was alive, they drew a damned chalk outline around her and never checked her pulse?
I turned it off at that point. I have not one single idea how anyone could have liked that movie, not unless they just get off on the ideas of abusing women, beating them, raping them, and watching them cut each other to death. Quentin Tarantino must have issues so big you could eclipse the sun with them. He should get therapy. Fast. I hope he's on some kind of medication.
For dinner I tried Gardenburger's non-chicken BBQ chicken patties. I think they were good, but it was really hard to tell. The BBQ sauce was that kind that's so strong and tangy that you literally can't taste anything else after it, so I have no idea if the chicken tasted good or not. It's amazing how they can make it look so much like chicken though -- it "flakes" just right. I over-microwaved it, which also didn't help. I have one more patty left in the box, I'll probably eat it some time. (If I don't, it'll be because of the BBQ sauce, not because of the chicken/soy.)
It's amazing they can make such a good fake meat out of soy. It reminds me of the food replicators on Star Trek, and it also makes me wonder why more people aren't eating it. If it can pass for meat, and it's much better for you than meat, and from what I've seen so far it's the same price as meat...
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no subject
Date: 2003-10-26 01:00 am (UTC)Random soy comments
Date: 2003-10-26 05:05 am (UTC)It all goes back to "moderation in all things, except moderation."
Unless you're vegetarian from an ethical or environmental reasons, in which case, consult a dietician.... ;-)
no subject
Date: 2003-10-26 07:07 am (UTC)Anyway, I don't know if Ive had the chicken pattie syou had... did the BBQ sauce come with it, or was it yours? I think thats throwing me off. Was it chicken pattie where it was like "breaded". If so i had it. I generally like those kind in most brands. Its probably the most "true to the meat its supposed to resemble" patties IMHO.... but that said, I think its best to try to taste these products for their own flavor, and not try to hold them up to this expectation of having the taste and texture of real meat- I think that is also why some people refuse to eat the stuff. They eat a McDonalds one day, then try a gardenburger or boca burger and they just will not taste the same- expect them to, and one will fall sort- way short... but if you learn to eat without compairing them, you can decide to like or dislike each on its own merits, not by how they compare. Some of my favorite patties are those veggie ones where they aren't supposed to resemble meat at all- they have the soy and soemtime segg in there and you can see bits of carrot and peas etc.. i also like the Quorn chicken patties- they have a yummy spicey-ness I don't find in the other brands. Made of some kind of mushroom fungus thing- a very minority of peopel are allergic to that, I'm happy I am not.
I personally like to make the fake chik-patties into sandwhiches made of: a lightly toasted bun, ranch dressing and crisp lettuce. They also sell the fake chicken in most brands in a nugget form- (even if you cant find them, you can just cut up a chick pattie). These I like to make a simple veggie stir fry (my fav is mushrooms, broccoli- but I'll add snow peas, carrot, bamboo shoots, bok choy etc soemtimes) , cook the "chic" seperately (so the breading doesn't crumble all over the pan), and then toss it into the stirfry. Add sauce of choice- I like this Thai peanut sauce.
There are things in meat also that aren't in soy products. A well balanced vegitarian diet can find those nutrients in other foods of course. True Vegan diets are hellish to try to get that all in- doable but hellish and does not work with my feelings on 'eating locally'. I still crave raw red meats when my body needs certain nutrients (probably the iron and B vitamins). Fortunately I've access to organic, free range meat. I still try to keep that to a minimum though. Most americans eat way more meat then the human body actually needs.
Liek someone else said, all things in moderation. =) glad you're finding some alternative products you are enjoying.
Oh! I just thought of this having done shopping the other day. Theres a newsletter you can sign up for called "Mambo Sprouts Messanger", I love this thing. They send you a packet of coupons in the mail avery so many months full of coupons for all kinds of alternative/health foods. They usually have one or more of the fake-burger/fake-chick brands in there and lots of other stuff. some of the coupons are a good $1 off. Store by me started handign out extras, so I have tons of the same coupons, and then the stuff went on sale so I stocked up on smart choice chick patties for like $1.50! Now that is BETTER then meat price wise. If you want to get the coupons in the mail, go here; http://www.mambosprouts.com and sign up for the newsletter. =)
no subject
Date: 2003-10-26 08:12 am (UTC)Very ditto. Talk about your classic parody from hell! It was a complete send up of every Hong Kong Kung Fu flick ever made, with a bunch of classic 70s explotiation films thrown in for good measure. From the cheesy faux 70s introduction to the surreal musical score to the anime interlude to the choreography of the fight scenes (the whack'em-smack'em-a-thon in the tea house, for instance was an absolute *classic*!) simply screamed, "Do not take this seriously!" ::g::
Personally, since I love that genre of movies, I completely loved Kill Bill. And the comedic touches (the suck-up hostess in the fur-trimmed standing on the bloody dance floor; The Bride's repeated slamming of "Bud's" head in the door; the knife fight in the living room of the suburban Pasadena home!; the Pussy Wagon!) had me in stitches. So yeah, I think perhaps we weren't watching the same movie in the same headspace. *Totally* not something to take seriously. Totally a very loving parody of several genres of over the top film making!
no subject
Date: 2003-10-26 08:15 am (UTC)The "chicken" was breaded and came with the BBQ sauce, yeah. It was in a pouch to keep it all together.
Oh, I read about Quorn! Sounded more like a science fiction thing than a food item. :) They grow this fungus in test tubes and make it out of that (though they call it "mushroom", it's not really). I don't think I'm ready for that step yet!
I personally like to make the fake chik-patties into sandwhiches made of: a lightly toasted bun, ranch dressing and crisp lettuce.
*Drool!* Oh, that sounds so good. (Apparently I should eat breakfast soon, I'm starving.)
Thanks for the info on Mambo Sprouts Messanger, too! I'll go sign up there right now.
Re: Random soy comments
Date: 2003-10-26 08:32 am (UTC)It all goes back to "moderation in all things, except moderation."
Words to live by!
no subject
Date: 2003-10-26 08:45 am (UTC)And being honest, how many people do you think went to the movie and thought 'tribute'? And how many cheered the blood and the violence? Tribute or not, this sort of thing desensitizes people to violence. I saw nothing cartoony about it, either. It was disgustingly realistic, and in my opinion, didn't belong on any movie screen.
YYMV. :)
no subject
Date: 2003-10-26 08:57 am (UTC)Seeing this kind of violence does have an effect on people (and I wonder if that effect might be greater if they're seeing it and thinking "parody"?), and the world is already messed up enough with some guy going out and trying to make people think rape, murder, and death are funny or casual things.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-26 10:52 am (UTC)I'm not saying that Kill Bill was a parody in the same way that, say, Leslie Nielson's Airplane or Police Academy movies are parody. Kill Bill was not meant to be Funny Ha-Ha, I don't think, although there were comedic elements in it (as there are in any movie, even those that are serious and weighty and so forth). There were a lot of "nods" and "wink-winks" to previous films and iconic sorts of scenes in this movie, which, if you're familiar with the genre, you might have chuckled at or gasped aloud in recognition or whatever. The film was made in the tradition of all those other 70s genre films, and in some cases, it poked fun at those narrative conventions--this is what I mean by parody. Perhaps "tribute to" is a better word? I don't know. The very fact that the main character didn't have a name so much as a title "The Bride", not to mention the narrative style of it old in chapters, with heavy exposition by the narrator, helps anchor the film's contents in the realm of "fairy tale" rather than "this is real life." Or at least it did for me. YMMV!
My worry is all the folks like me, who look at it and see something serious.
Well, I see your point, but...
I think that *all* genre movies suffer from this sort of potential misunderstanding. Take a look at any action film, from Die Hard to Aliens to Terminator 2 to The Matrix. There is violence and mayhem galore in all those movies and yet it is "genre" violence--almost cartoonish in nature. The sort of violence there is nowhere as "real" as the violence and degradation of other people in a movie like Training Day or To Live and Die in LA or even The Godfather which is *meant* to be perceived as "real."
What Tarantino did in Kill Bill was to transport a classic Hong Kong "revenge flick" into a modern-day fantasy world populated by assassains. Part of the point of the movie was that Uma Thurman's character was *not nice,* she was a trained super-killer who'd been betrayed and left for dead by her fellow gang of killers. Her "mission" to "kill Bill" (the leader of the gang) and the resulting trials she faces, as she must one by one kill off all her former cohorts to get to him, is a pretty classic revenge storyline.
The fact that the real world (i.e. suburban southern California) clashes so violently in a moral and visual way with The Bride's mission is exactly the jarring effect that I suspect that Tarantino was going for. What happens when these two worlds collide? Part of what Kill Bill does is answer that question.
That particular scene--where Uma Thurma and Vivica Fox are going at it with deadly intent, and then pause and make nice so that the child doesn't see the violence is precisely that sort of recognition of both characters that their world of sadism and killing-for-hire has impinged on the "real world" and that those two worlds have *very* different rules. While the child is present, they honor the rules of the "real world." Even while the child is in the house, Thurman's character honors the rules, but Fox deliberately breaks those rules and mayhem ensues, ending in the child witnessing the murder. Thurman's character *still* continues to honor them, however, by *not* killing the girl, and inviting the girl to look her up later if she's still angry about the killing--a recognition that The Bride does not try to have things both ways, she's willing to play by the rules of *both* worlds and accept the concequences of her actions.
I don't disagree with you that watching violent movies, TV shows, whatever, doesn't have an effect on people. However it's not clear to me exactly what responsibility a film maker has to ensure that his/her audience goes into the film with the right headspace to interpret the film as s/he intended. I would have been more comfortable if the movie had been rated NC-17 for violence, but it's unclear to me exactly what else, beyond that, could or should be done. Perhaps greater education on the part of film goers? I don't know. People misinterpret works of art all the time.
Soy turns me into Wordy McWord.
Date: 2003-10-26 01:11 pm (UTC)People could eat soy in the same quantities that they should eat meat, because the average person in the western world gets more than enough protein on any given day, even without it. Any carb/dairy combo is likely to give you complete protein. Cheese sandwich (as long as it is not super processed white bread with yellow cheese) or a bowl of whole grain cereal with milk are adequate starters. So if you indulged in a tasty meat product twice a week or so, replacing meat with soy wouldn't be a bad idea.
Gardenburger also uses wheat glueten protein, which doesn't have the same properties as soy.
For some chicken-like products, the soy is textured in much the same way that commercial nylon is made. Ever make nylon in chemistry class? You have a vat or beaker of the chemicals, and you spin out a fiber on a spool. The stringier soy chicken products are made like that, so the sad truth is that it is superprocessed, all of it, even straight up tofu. The only way you can get unprocessed soy is to eat edamame. So, the processing part of the equation might lead one to wonder-- issues of cruelty and death aside, which is "healthier"-- Organic free-range meat bought locally, or super-processed soy product made in a big factory and shipped accross the country in a dioxin-containing cardboard box on a big deisel buring truck?
I really love the Riblets, by the way. The meat acutally has a taste besides the sauce. Not so much about the chicken. And it is more expenisve than meat, if one were to buy meat that they had to prepare themselves.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-26 01:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-26 01:24 pm (UTC)The sort of violence there is nowhere as "real" as the violence and degradation of other people in a movie like Training Day or To Live and Die in LA or even The Godfather which is *meant* to be perceived as "real."
Agreed, but in Training Day (the only one of the three that I saw), the violence had consequences. That's a really, really important difference to me. In the third of Kill Bill that I saw, there were no consequences of the violence (other than the chance of being killed off by the main character, who got no consequences herself). I understand this might not be accurate, as I don't know how the movie ended... but somehow I doubt the main killer lady ended up on trial and in prison. :) She probably walked off into the sunset, while some stylish music played.
Agreed on the last paragraph. An NC-17 would have made me somewhat more comfortable (though I could still see young men wanting to go see it even more for the violence then). While I do think it's at least partially the filmmaker's fault for the misunderstandings, I don't put it all at his feet.
Re: Soy turns me into Wordy McWord.
Date: 2003-10-26 01:28 pm (UTC)Wow, that makes it sound so tasty! Heh. You raise good questions though.
And I haven't tried the Riblets yet, though I've been looking for them. The next time I make it to Trader Joe's, I'll check for them there.
Thanks!
no subject
Date: 2003-10-26 01:30 pm (UTC):)
no subject
Date: 2003-10-26 01:50 pm (UTC)Good points have already been made, so I won't repeat...But the violence being realistic? Please. I'll accept it being called many things...Gratuitous, senseless, grotesque...but realistic? Pfft.
You already said yourself how cheesy it was, and that's only in the first 30 minutes. Believe me, it gets worse. Last time I checked, when decapitated, blood does not issue from the neck in an ultra high-pressure spray, several yards straight up. But then, as has seemed to be the common mantra in this thread...YMMV.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-26 02:11 pm (UTC)Okay, I'll be nothing but honest here, and please try not to take offense. I, personally, think that anyone who saw the trailers, saw that it was by Quentin-fragging-Tarrantino, heard the reviews, and saw the beautiful schlock unfolding before them, should reasonably know exactly what to expect. I understand that you weren't in QT's core audience, having little to no appreciation for the genres in question, but still.
...and in my opinion, didn't belong on any movie screen.
I'll just say this. This opinion would carry more weight from someone who didn't greatly enjoy things like Oz and Training Day. Those are infinitely more realistic than the overblown cheese of Kill Bill, but are somehow acceptable? Is it because they depict consequences? Is it a matter of Kill Bill being "irresponsible" with its violence? I'll tell you what. When kids start dismembering armed thugs in teahouses, I'll eat crow. But until then, the events in more realistic programs are even now occurring in our streets and prisons. Totally unrelated, you say? No rational causative link? Exactly. Kill Bill is fantasy, pure and simple. It is not an exercise in gritty realism. You have every right to dislike the movie, but please understand that reviews based on seeing a quarter of the film, and misunderstanding that, will generally end up subject to scrutiny.