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thistlechaserPrivate messages, but not friends locked because I don't think I have everyone friended.
I'm still rereading all the comments and trying to take in everything. I apologize if I miss some point, there's a lot to reply to. I'm going to start with a general comment, then more directly to individuals.
First the most important two points: 1) Sorry for any hurt feelings. I was trying to be as honest as possible without hurting people, but the subject matter was a prickly one. 2) I wasn't trying to blame any one person. Nothing in my comment was intended to be personal.
I understand the game has shortcomings, things that make it hard to have a group of people work/play together. I hadn't known that all of the static lived in the same close area (I thought some of you did and others were elsewhere). (Added in rereading: I see later comments said you've now moved apart, so maybe I was cright.)
Should I have taken more initiative to get the LS to do other things? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I don't like to step on toes. I don't want to whine and complain and demand attention. To borrow a quote: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one." I didn't want to try to take the group's time to do things that I wanted to do, especially when everyone was so driven in one single task (leveling static).
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glaciation: On the rank 5 point, okay. I was too focused on a part of the conversation (having more 30s people wouldn't be good), and less focused on the high level character end. My bad. It's fair to want to do it yourself, if that's what you want.
1200seconds: After I was dropped from the static, a number of things changed. Not just the drive for rank 5 becoming more intense, but people who had previously said that they didn't think they'd ever become really high level were now talking about that as being a reasonable possibility. It was like the static party was possessed. It didn't look as if the frenzy was going to wear off, just set its goals higher and higher. I had no way of knowing that once you all hit X level, you'd suddenly want to do other things. It looked as if you wouldn't stop until you were 75.
The BST was partially my fault. I've made changes, myself. I loved WHM, but when I was no longer a part of the PG static, I forced myself to stop loving it. (What would be the use of continuing to love it, if I couldn't play it anymore?) Then CTY invited me to a static with it, but I couldn't recapture the love for the job (and thus never pushed them to party -- plus the whole "not wanting to step on toes" thing. I'm new there, too!). BST is an okay job, but it's a... defense. If I had continued on with WHM, I would never have talked up BST so much. (Does that make any sense? You all were so satisfied with everything, so I wanted something I really liked, too.) BST is a fine, challenging job, but it was WHM I loved.
isildur: Agreed that PG and CTY can't/shouldn't be compared... but it's still hard not to. How can I not look at the two and weigh things when deciding which LS to equip? (And while there are some high level people there, there are just as many people who level even slower than I do.)
It wasn't a matter of 'Oh, I don't like Thistle, let's get rid of her...' but rather 'This is my chance to fix the problem that's caused this game to be wretched for the girl I love for the last 6 months.' We're good friends with Kirby, Ashonee's player, as well; I would have asked him to bow out for Button.
I understand what you're saying, but you're not disagreeing with what I said: People were chosen. Some were taken, others were dropped. SE has some of the blame for setting party limits, and I don't blame you for picking your fiancee over others, but the end result is the same.
We didn't come up with this group because we have an urge to re-level. We came up with it because we're unhappy that we don't see you anymore. We came up with it for exactly one person's benefit: you. ... It hurts worse to reach out and have one's hand slapped.
I'm sorry it hurt. If I had the power to prevent people from having their feelings hurt over a game, then I would make sure it never happen. I also feel bad that you were doing something like that for one person -- I wouldn't ever request that the whole group change for me! If the group had done something I could have taken part in, I would have joined in; I didn't expect the whole group to make changes just for me.
Understandable about the RP. It's not something I seek out, it's just a fun extra.
I hope you at least ate lunch while you typed! :)
eilonwey: I'm getting the sense that one of the reasons you really like CTY is that the emphasis there is on roleplaying and socializing as your characters. And on meeting lots of new people. Not on keeping up years of already established friendships.
The RP there is fun, but it's neither why I went there or why I stay there. It's very silly, and just a little extra "bonus" thing. It's not even real RP! (Or at least "real" in a MUSH-sense of RP.) Agreed on the second part: My friends there (and on most of FFXI as a whole) are new friends.
I assumed that someone had already explained Operation Paladin to you and its repercussions by that point.
It was a long time ago. While I don't recall anyone saying "When we reach X level you will have to leave the group", it was probably implied. And, as I told non-PG people, I should have probably assumed that when X level was reached I would have been dropped. We (PG and I) just seem to have a different focus on things. I think friends should party together, even if it hurts in-game progress. Make two little parties and ally them? Rotate people sitting out for a week? Even if it hurt XP/leveling, I would have chosen something like that so that the group could have stayed together. It was my mistake to assume that everyone would feel the same way as me. :)
I'm sorry that you've felt hurt that we haven't done more lowbie leveling with you since you left the high level party
It's not the leveling, it was being together as a group. If I never earned another level in the game, but I got to hang out with good friends on two LSs, I still would have been a happy person.
---
I hope I covered all of the main points people brought up. I've put more worktime hours into this than I should have, so I can't go over all the comments again. If I missed something, feel free to point it out and I'll reply when I can.
I'm still rereading all the comments and trying to take in everything. I apologize if I miss some point, there's a lot to reply to. I'm going to start with a general comment, then more directly to individuals.
First the most important two points: 1) Sorry for any hurt feelings. I was trying to be as honest as possible without hurting people, but the subject matter was a prickly one. 2) I wasn't trying to blame any one person. Nothing in my comment was intended to be personal.
I understand the game has shortcomings, things that make it hard to have a group of people work/play together. I hadn't known that all of the static lived in the same close area (I thought some of you did and others were elsewhere). (Added in rereading: I see later comments said you've now moved apart, so maybe I was cright.)
Should I have taken more initiative to get the LS to do other things? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I don't like to step on toes. I don't want to whine and complain and demand attention. To borrow a quote: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one." I didn't want to try to take the group's time to do things that I wanted to do, especially when everyone was so driven in one single task (leveling static).
glaciation: On the rank 5 point, okay. I was too focused on a part of the conversation (having more 30s people wouldn't be good), and less focused on the high level character end. My bad. It's fair to want to do it yourself, if that's what you want.1200seconds: After I was dropped from the static, a number of things changed. Not just the drive for rank 5 becoming more intense, but people who had previously said that they didn't think they'd ever become really high level were now talking about that as being a reasonable possibility. It was like the static party was possessed. It didn't look as if the frenzy was going to wear off, just set its goals higher and higher. I had no way of knowing that once you all hit X level, you'd suddenly want to do other things. It looked as if you wouldn't stop until you were 75.The BST was partially my fault. I've made changes, myself. I loved WHM, but when I was no longer a part of the PG static, I forced myself to stop loving it. (What would be the use of continuing to love it, if I couldn't play it anymore?) Then CTY invited me to a static with it, but I couldn't recapture the love for the job (and thus never pushed them to party -- plus the whole "not wanting to step on toes" thing. I'm new there, too!). BST is an okay job, but it's a... defense. If I had continued on with WHM, I would never have talked up BST so much. (Does that make any sense? You all were so satisfied with everything, so I wanted something I really liked, too.) BST is a fine, challenging job, but it was WHM I loved.
isildur: Agreed that PG and CTY can't/shouldn't be compared... but it's still hard not to. How can I not look at the two and weigh things when deciding which LS to equip? (And while there are some high level people there, there are just as many people who level even slower than I do.)It wasn't a matter of 'Oh, I don't like Thistle, let's get rid of her...' but rather 'This is my chance to fix the problem that's caused this game to be wretched for the girl I love for the last 6 months.' We're good friends with Kirby, Ashonee's player, as well; I would have asked him to bow out for Button.
I understand what you're saying, but you're not disagreeing with what I said: People were chosen. Some were taken, others were dropped. SE has some of the blame for setting party limits, and I don't blame you for picking your fiancee over others, but the end result is the same.
We didn't come up with this group because we have an urge to re-level. We came up with it because we're unhappy that we don't see you anymore. We came up with it for exactly one person's benefit: you. ... It hurts worse to reach out and have one's hand slapped.
I'm sorry it hurt. If I had the power to prevent people from having their feelings hurt over a game, then I would make sure it never happen. I also feel bad that you were doing something like that for one person -- I wouldn't ever request that the whole group change for me! If the group had done something I could have taken part in, I would have joined in; I didn't expect the whole group to make changes just for me.
Understandable about the RP. It's not something I seek out, it's just a fun extra.
I hope you at least ate lunch while you typed! :)
eilonwey: I'm getting the sense that one of the reasons you really like CTY is that the emphasis there is on roleplaying and socializing as your characters. And on meeting lots of new people. Not on keeping up years of already established friendships.The RP there is fun, but it's neither why I went there or why I stay there. It's very silly, and just a little extra "bonus" thing. It's not even real RP! (Or at least "real" in a MUSH-sense of RP.) Agreed on the second part: My friends there (and on most of FFXI as a whole) are new friends.
I assumed that someone had already explained Operation Paladin to you and its repercussions by that point.
It was a long time ago. While I don't recall anyone saying "When we reach X level you will have to leave the group", it was probably implied. And, as I told non-PG people, I should have probably assumed that when X level was reached I would have been dropped. We (PG and I) just seem to have a different focus on things. I think friends should party together, even if it hurts in-game progress. Make two little parties and ally them? Rotate people sitting out for a week? Even if it hurt XP/leveling, I would have chosen something like that so that the group could have stayed together. It was my mistake to assume that everyone would feel the same way as me. :)
I'm sorry that you've felt hurt that we haven't done more lowbie leveling with you since you left the high level party
It's not the leveling, it was being together as a group. If I never earned another level in the game, but I got to hang out with good friends on two LSs, I still would have been a happy person.
---
I hope I covered all of the main points people brought up. I've put more worktime hours into this than I should have, so I can't go over all the comments again. If I missed something, feel free to point it out and I'll reply when I can.
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no subject
Date: 2004-08-10 03:24 pm (UTC)I think that once you get home and have some more time to think and read, it might be helpful for you to read over our comments more. I don't really feel like you responded to some important parts in them.
Most importantly, I think we're looking for feedback on what we can all do in the present and future tense to make things better/rebuild trust on all sides/start having fun together again. And if that's just not possible, then I think we need to know that, as well, so we can all move on.
But feel free to take some time to think everything over and digest it, first.
no subject
Date: 2004-08-10 03:28 pm (UTC)* It sounds like there was a pretty serious communications breakdown, and the 'snub' felt a lot harsher than it could've. That's unfortunate. I can say I lurked around enough of the MUSH comments to know that nobody was ever saying, "Let's ditch Thistle once we get back to Button's level!" However, the issue was inevitable, and probably should've been talked about in advance.
* On the other hand, the Princess Guard Linkshell has certain traits that aren't exactly in-line with your goals. They're typically on during specific hours, night-time west coast (plus randomly weekends.) They're interested in exploring the story of the game, which leads to being interested in levelling and rank. This isn't a good match for your style of a lot of low-key hours punctuated by occasional hunts.
* They're very small. Thus, it's very difficult to juggle character levels and numbers. If you have a 100 person linkshell, there's often going to be 3-5 other people your level wanting to do something. When you've got 10 or so, you work hard to keep them near each other in level, and if 7 show up, there's a big problem.
* Most of PG has some degree of aversion to random players, to the point that splitting 7 into a 3 and a 4 person group and filling out with random recruits is undesirable. PG is made up of RL friends, too, who want to play together - we used to all live in the Bay Area, and half of us moved to Seattle, so that's coming into play as well.
* However, as a corrolary to that, having access to a pool of people who are vouched for, and know enough to follow basic tactics and not talk about their urinary habits is valuable! Especially since there are things in the game where alliances are required. I know that PG would not only welcome you joining in if group size, timing, and levels permitted it, but as someone with a whole big linkshell full of friends, you become a very valuable resource! I bet everyone would feel better about the transition period if it worked out that your finding a linkshell that suits you better meant everyone made some new friends. But, I'm just an optimist that way.
no subject
Date: 2004-08-10 03:34 pm (UTC)and not talk about their urinary habits is valuable!
I promise I'll never, ever invite Monkeykiller to any events! (And thanks for the giggle!)
Agreed on most everything else in your comment. Miscommunication, assumptions, different playing styles, I suppose this sort of thing was unavoidable...
no subject
Date: 2004-08-10 03:38 pm (UTC)Mm, bullet points
Date: 2004-08-10 04:19 pm (UTC)1) On Initiative: Most nights, I log into FFXI and say to myself, "Man, I wish there was something for me to do tonight. Is there anyone on that needs help with anything? No? Darn it. I guess I'll go 'insert current moneymaking scheme here.' Damn you, Erase, damn you to Hell." I would love to:
a) help people get RSE keys and chests
b) help people get advanced jobs open
c) have a fishing party so I'm not just mindlessly cursing Erase while reading a book
d) be entertained while mining
It is often the case that what you perceive as demanding attention would in fact be giving other people a chance to do something fun. Not always, it's true, but I encourage you to ask! I spend hours cajoling the group into doing what I want, and they seem to still be willing to do it! Well, except when it involves sahagins, snif.
2) On Rank 5: My secret is that I'd enjoy escorting a group of 30's along if they had the attention span necessary not to get themselves slaughtered. Other PG people are more worried about it than I am, which I can understand; I didn't do as good a job at keeping the R4 mission together as I would've liked, and that was with people I know. CTY seems generally pretty cool, from what you've said, and having some chance to work together would be very nice. But being escorted by 60+'s would make me feel like (I suspect) you'd feel if, on Sunday night, a master leathercrafter suddenly started handing out leathercrafter aprons to all and sundry. Okay, I suspect you'd be more upset -- I'd just be disappointed in myself.
3) On Op:PLD: As the initial organizer, I have to plead real life on this one. I initially organized to 28 and had no plan past there. Then I started trying to sell my house and got distracted with a bunch of related problems that prevented me from composing anything coherent plan-wise. All of the sudden, we were 28, Ashonee got City of Heroes, and Marten was the right level to sub in. Things were very fast from there on out. If I did it all over again, I would clarify what would happen at the various key levels.
4) On the level 'rush': It's funny to talk about this, because I feel like I'm barely doing any significant leveling whatsoever on primary jobs in FFXI. In April, I was 36th level! Four months later, I'm 41st level! Woo hoo, five levels of new content in four months!
It's all a matter of perspective, I guess. :)