Are you there God? It's me, Thistle.

[thistlechaser]

Religion Definition
are you mono or polytheistic?	How come "atheistic" isn't an option?
do you subscribe to a major religion?	No.
how do you feel about Jesus?	While perhaps there was once a real man named Jesus, I do not believe he was anything but human.
what holy book do you feel is most accurate (Bible, Koran, etc)	Again, why isn't "none of the above" an option?
do you believe in reincarnation?	I'd like it to be true, but I don't believe it to be so.
do you believe in the traditional heaven and hell?	No.
do you believe in ANY heaven and/or hell?	No.
do you think the god(s) are vengeful or nice?	See above.
do you believe in angels?	No, and I feel sorry for people who do.
do you believe in miracles?	Not at all.
do you believe in predestination?	No. People make choices, then react to the results of those choices.
do you believe in original sin?	*sigh* Of course not.
do you believe in freedom of will?	Yes.
do you believe in souls?	No.
what do you think will happen to you when you die?	"Fade to black". You die, your body rots. The end.
do you think there will be an armageddon?	Probably, but one caused by humans, not by gods, the devil, ghosts, or the Loch Ness Monster.
why do you think we exist?	Because life is driven to go on, to reproduce, to evolve.
do you believe in life on other planets?	There could be life elsewhere, sure. Simple life, complex life, who knows. The universe is such a big place, it's seriously self centered to think that Earth is the only place life could have happened.
do you believe in evolution?	It scares me to the core to think that people do not believe in evolution.
do you think religion and science will always oppose the other?	Yes, because one believes in things without any facts and the other requires facts to believe.
what would you say to God if you met him/her/them today?	"Ehhhh, sorry I was wrong about you? Please don't kill me!" :)
anything else we should know?	It makes me very sad that people willingly give control over their life to something that doesn't even exist. That people need a crutch, that they need to rely on something outside of themselves to get through the day.
CREATE YOUR OWN! - or - GET PAID TO TAKE SURVEYS!

It makes me very very sad to see questions like "Do you believe in evolution?". That's like asking if you believe that the world is round! I don't understand, I don't understand, I don't understand.

A year or so back, my mother told me she believed in angels. She believes that angels exist and sometimes show up in day to day lives of living people. I nearly fell out of my chair. While I knew a lot of people share that belief, I just cannot understand it. If angels did exist, why wouldn't there be some proof? Any proof? It's the same thing as ghosts, psychic powers, and all that.

I took a class in college, and one of the main ideas I took away from it was "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". God, angels, ghosts, unicorns, UFOs, all those things are mighty extraordinary claims, so where's the proof? How can people just close their eyes, cover their ears, go "la la la la I can't hear you!" and believe in something there's no proof for?

Sigh. I just don't understand.

Comments

[ladycosmos.livejournal.com]

I think people look at proof differently. Some people want something tangible, other people are able to take events and say "it was guided by God" or something.

What gets me about religion is that people feel that you have to believe in something. Also, that a book written nearly 2000 ago, all rules still apply today. I'm sorry. But a science book written 2000 years ago is seen as a stepping stone; a way to find the truth. Why can't the holy books be seen in the same light?

Personally, I believe in myself. I believe in my own choices and that what I feel is right is right for me. I don't need someone from 2000 years ago telling me what morals to live by today or how to live my life. Times change and so do the rules.

[frances-jane.livejournal.com]

Pretty much with you all the way. I have a different opinion on other people's beliefs, though: Seems to me that if it makes things better for a person, then they are free to believe that black is white and that cows jump over moons. Where's the harm? Especially since even though I've never seen a cow jump over a moon with my own peepers - or an angel or a ghost - and I am certain I will never see any of these things, doesn't mean they aren't there. I've never seen Australia. It's there.

It kind of irritates me when people add a whole backstory to that strange bump in the night: it was the young girl who was killed her three-hundred years ago, etc. and not just the clunk of the boiler. But I think it makes things fun. I love making up stories myself. Difference is I don't tend to actually believe in them. But there's a thin line.

[sailorstarsun.livejournal.com]

All I can say is...I agree with you.

How can people seriously believe "poof! humans exist!" is more believeable than evolution, which has proof? How can people be so blind/confused/gullible?

Though, if people "find God" or whatever and it makes them happy warm people who love everyone, that's fine and cool for them, as long as they don't preach to me about it. It's when they get all zealous "believe what I believe or I'll kill you" that I get irritated.

Yeah....it's hard to understand..

[chichiri.livejournal.com]

My mom said she read these books where this woman goes around documenting similar stories about 'ghosts' haunting certain houses, and other unusual phenomenon. Like how this person had a 'feeling' to go stop by this house she was driving by...so she did and the people answered the door and were like "OMG IT"S THE GHOST!" because apparently they saw an apparition that looked just like her. o_o So the argument was that she had lived there in a past life, so that's why she felt attracted to go stop there in the first place. So at night when she slept, her soul went to the house. --; They're supposed to be true stories, and there's a lot of books like that with supposed 'true' accounts like that. so *shrug* you just have to read the right stuff. The way my mom explained it, there does seem to be proof, and she's not the type of person to swallow something like that. She's the type of person to research A LOT. So it throws me off to the point where about god and spirits etc, I'm just answering a big fat "I don't know and I don't care :F"

[wanderingscribe.livejournal.com]

Ehhh, religion ends up being a sore spot with me (as in 'I'm sick of arguing/discussing/debating about it'), so I didn't really do this meme. ^^;

I'm more of the 'believe what you want, just don't push it on me' mindset anyway. Though personal experience has me believing in ghosts. It's kind of hard to disparage something when I've seen it with my own eyes.

[laurelwood.livejournal.com]

I can't believe that I have someone on my friendslist who has so little faith in the ultimate evil of the Loch Ness Monster. Tsk.

;)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Oh, but you misunderstand me! I know and accept the evilness of that watery beast, but she's half the world away from me! There are much worse things all the closer! Like the New Jersey Devil! And the ... um. And other monsters, too!

;)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Understood! I often avoid this whole topic as well. Don't know what got into me today.

:)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I'm just answering a big fat "I don't know and I don't care :F"

Hee, I like that policy! :)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Personally, I believe in myself. I believe in my own choices and that what I feel is right is right for me. I don't need someone from 2000 years ago telling me what morals to live by today or how to live my life.

That sounds like a really smart way to go about it.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I've never seen Australia. It's there.

Heehee. But, see, for Australia there are photos and tons of sane people who have seen it. There are animals from there that get shipped here, dried flowers, probably some sort of food products... lots of proof! There aren't any photos of angels, we can't buy products from the angel homeland, all that... (I like that thought though! Maybe we should look further into the validity of Australia! ;) )

Seems to me that if it makes things better for a person, then they are free to believe that black is white and that cows jump over moons. Where's the harm?

I know, and I should feel that way as well. But it annoys me that people need a crutch! When they get fired and can't accept the reasons they can just say "it was god's will". Or if someone dies of cancer or some madman shoots a classroom full of kids, it can all be written off as "god's will". Why don't people who believe in that stuff see it as and accept it as a what it is: a crutch? If your family member is sick in the hospital, you're powerless! Just accept that! Praying won't change anything, it just makes you feel like you have some control. It's nothing but an illusion.

...but yes, I really should live and let live. :)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

"Exactly", "agreed", and all that. :)

[chrysoula.livejournal.com]

Since you implied you wanted to understand, here's something to keep in mind.

People who dismiss evolution as a crock are not given the same information you have. Both parties rely primarily on education and information they've been given from authorities they trust. I've had a detailed conversation with somebody who didn't 'believe' in evolution. He'd been taught that the theory of evolution, and the existence of dinosaurs and the age of the earth had certain holes in the theory that led to extremely circular and unreliable reasoning. I actually had to do some real research to find those holes and explain them to him-- I couldn't just handwave it because he knew more about the actual science that establishes such facts than I did. He just knew a slightly warped and dated version of those facts and that science. Luckily, he was a teenager interested in communication, so it didn't turn into the sort of really nasty arguement that usually prevents these extremely enlightening details from coming to the surface.

Religion-induced blindness is a problem, but it's a problem because adults are afraid of things that are different, or new, or make their lives a lie. It's not because people are stupid and willfully blind and ignorant.

[loneguardian.livejournal.com]

Depends, what do you call proof?

I call the fact everything in nature goes from order to disorder something to bring evolution into question. Even Darwin himself said his theory could be disproven. It's never been made a law, I don't know why teachers preach it like it is, there's not enough proof on either side of the coin. (And frankly, I'd like to think I'm a little more important than just some relative to a monkey...)

I call the fact Earth can be scientificly measured as losing gravity and slowing down, and tracing that rate of decay back millions of years to a planet unable sustain life a decent argument. I'm not kidding on this, go look it up! Go look up the statistics on some of the theories modern society claims are truth, they're staggering!

I also call the fact that I've tested some things I've learned in my spiritual walk and have found them to be very true a basis for the fact there is a supernatural -something- out there. Be it a higher being or whatever, there is something, 'cause no physical force could have done what I've experienced.

Finally, I also know demons, at least, exist. From personal experience. Yes, I'm mentally stable too. ^_~ Even if I'm wrong and there is no God, I do know there is something out there. I've seen it and felt it.

Now, I admit my beliefs could be wrong. (Spare I will not waver on what I've experienced myself, those are very true and very real to me.) You could be right. But I still believe, and always will. I hope you'd at least be willing to consider the fact -you- might be wrong. I honestly can't imagine going through life as alone as you must feel...

We'll see someday. :3 If I come back in a next life, you can even smack me for being wrong. If I'm not a frog or something. ^_~ But if I'm right, I really wish you'd reconsider your choices.

[loneguardian.livejournal.com]

Religion-induced blindness is a problem

It is. >.< Now, I'm of Christian faith, yes, but I'm ashamed of my own 'religion' half the time >.> I love to discuss what is known on both sides of the matter (I'm a science buff, fear me!), even if I do tend to stick to my own beliefs. It's the people that utterly refuse to accept -any- form of evolution and condemn people who won't conform to their way of thinking that bug the hell out of me. Even I'll admit that some species have changed significantly over time, but I know people who are so damn stubborn you can't even have an intelligent conversation with them on the topic. v.v

[evilgrayson.livejournal.com]

All I can say on this, Thistle, is that there are more things in heaven and earth.

I've got too much evidence to believe that there isn't something out there that people have conveniently labelled 'God'. The problem with the concept 'God' is that God has to be, by definition, something that a human mind cannot grasp, therefore no one human-interpreted religion can possibly have it all right.

I've spent too much time doing the impossible to think that anything else is impossible. Angels? Might well exist. Just because I haven't seen one, it doesn't mean they don't exist. See the Australia argument above. :)

[evilgrayson.livejournal.com]

Not commenting on the evolution stuff. It's of little interest to me, and I don't see why a Creator couldn't have used evolution as his tool.

But yes, I've experienced the 'higher being' effect, and I'll stand with you on it. I've also encountered what people term 'demons' as well. I prefer the former, funnily enough. :)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Hmm, that's interesting! And I'm glad the talk with the teen was a success (I'd be wary about even entering into the conversation, knowing its likely outcome).

Thanks!

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I've got too much evidence to believe that there isn't something out there that people have conveniently labelled 'God'.

See, but what sort of evidence? Feelings, mental nudges, half-caught glimpses can all be caused by other things. (I'm just guessing at what you've encountered.) Unless you have photos and a hand-written note from god, I'm afraid I can't believe it as well.

Just because I haven't seen one, it doesn't mean they don't exist. See the Australia argument above. :)

While the Australia argument amuses me lots, it doesn't really apply here. There is a ton of real, solid, scientific evidence that Australia exists. There is none for god, angels, ghosts, etc.

When some tangible evidence of such things is accepted by the general scientific community, then I'll accept it as well. But until then? I can't.

:)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

See, this is interesting and brings up something I often think (worry?) about. I wonder if it works both ways? Could someone have "science-induced blindness"?

I wish I was more sure of things. 95% of me thinks that "I won't believe until you offer hard, scientific proof" is the best way to go, but a little part of me thinks it'd be cool as heck if there really where ghosts and gods and such. Of course, that small part of me also hopes there really is such a thing as magic and that maybe there are alternate universes and maybe one day I'll get sucked into one and have a much more interesting life.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

It's never been made a law, I don't know why teachers preach it like it is, there's not enough proof on either side of the coin.

Based on other comments from you, I suspect our schooling background has been pretty different. In the science classes I attended, it was never called more than "the theory of evolution", not a law. While I think there should be more uniformity across school systems, that would be both hard to bring about, and totally off-topic for this post. :)

(And frankly, I'd like to think I'm a little more important than just some relative to a monkey...)

When people say that, it bothers me quite a bit. It's sort of like when people said the Earth was the center of the universe (because humans are the most important thing, after all). To my way of thinking, people are just another kind of animal. Sure we think more/differently, but we mate, must eat to survive, and die. We're not above or somehow apart than the rest of life on Earth. We're part of nature, and I feel we should act more like it (which is a topic for another post, yeah).

I call the fact Earth can be scientifically measured as losing gravity and slowing down, and tracing that rate of decay back millions of years to a planet unable sustain life a decent argument. I'm not kidding on this, go look it up! Go look up the statistics on some of the theories modern society claims are truth, they're staggering!

I'm not sure I understand that part. The whole universe expanded after the Big Bang, and now it's contracting again. Eventually everything that exists now will end up as a little dot -- the same dot that existed before the Big Bang. (I took an astronomy class back in college, but that was a while ago, so I'm a tad fuzzy on this. I'm not sure if this is theory or was proven.) Is that what you're talking about?

I also call the fact that I've tested some things I've learned in my spiritual walk and have found them to be very true a basis for the fact there is a supernatural -something- out there. Be it a higher being or whatever, there is something, 'cause no physical force could have done what I've experienced.

While I'm not saying you're lying, that can't be counted as proof. Proof needs to be able to be shared with others, tested, confirmed or disproved. (I think I really there being an actual, accepted definition of "scientific proof", but when I tried to google it, all I found were religious pages. Heh!)

Finally, I also know demons, at least, exist. From personal experience. Yes, I'm mentally stable too. ^_~ Even if I'm wrong and there is no God, I do know there is something out there. I've seen it and felt it.

I'd never call you mentally unstable! (At least so long as you're not poking me with a lance, meanie! ;) ) I'd agree that "evil" exists, but I've not seen evidence that it's anything but human-made.

(Wow, this is too long! Heh. Continued in next comment.)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

(Continued.)

Now, I admit my beliefs could be wrong. (Spare I will not waver on what I've experienced myself, those are very true and very real to me.) You could be right. But I still believe, and always will. I hope you'd at least be willing to consider the fact -you- might be wrong. I honestly can't imagine going through life as alone as you must feel...

Know what? I actually hope I'm wrong. I'd like for there to be a god or gods who are controlling everything and who I could pray to and have some effect on something. If a family member was ever badly hurt, it would be nice to think that my wishes would have the power to affect the situation, but I can't believe that. I know too much about how the human mind works, about how we need/want to have control in situations where we have no control at all. To me, the belief in god/gods/spirits is a crutch that humans have fallen back on ever since we walked on two legs and made fire. There's so much in the world we have no power over! Cavemen never knew if when they went out hunting for dinner if a lion would end up eating them instead, so prayers gave them the confidence they needed to go out in that dangerous world and hunt.

I would love to think that there was some power out there that cared about me, that loved me no matter what I did, and that would welcome me after I die, but I can't believe in that any more than I can in Santa or the Easter Bunny. To me, there's as much proof for any one of those beings as the other.

Is it lonely? I suppose it's as lonely as being an adult is. (Sorry if that sounds offensive, it's not intended to be.) I stand on my own, I don't have a parent backing me up financially or keeping a roof over my head or feeding me dinner. If some really bad situation happened, I know that I have only myself to rely on, not a god or a close-at-hand-mother.

I hope I'm wrong, and I hope that if I'm wrong it's not too late to set things right once I find out that I am, but I doubt that I am wrong. It's depressing to think that after you die there's nothing more, but as with the caveman/lion situation, I know that believing in an afterlife is just a way that humans cope. How much harder death would be if everyone accepted there was nothing after! If people believe there's some reward, they'd go more happily and peacefully.

While those illusions would be comforting, I can't accept them. Reality, cold and harsh though it is, is what I want.

[loneguardian.livejournal.com]

Sounds to me like you just have a hard time grasping something you can't see or touch. I guess I can't relate because I've never really been in the real world and under the stress created. I was raised being told I was under the protection of a loving God, never questioned it 'til my mid-teens when I started really thinking about what I believed. Sorry I can't give you physical proof. ; ; Have you tried testing some of the things in the Bible? (Using the Bible, since I'm Christian, I suppose you can fill in whatever you want, but I know I've gotten results from that particular book.) I'd honestly encourage personal testing, since what we've told you secondhand isn't really 'proof'. :3 Kinna like trying to tell someone about the thrill of skydiving, but you can't possibly convince someone what it's realy like unless they do it themselves!

*snuggies* I know all I can give you are more or less considered opinions compared to the kind of proof you want, but I'm more than happy to discuss any of it with you if you ever feel the need to talk. Or heck, to talk just to express how you feel, I'll keep my mouth shut if'n ya want me to. :3 I want you to be grounded and secure, I worry about you, kiddo, you're my buddy! And don't worry about offending me, I know you're not aiming to, and honestly you don't. I just hope I don't end up offending you. XD *opinionated little bugger, yes she is!*

*Prods you with her Lance* ^_~ <3

[peppygrowlithe.livejournal.com]

Like Katerwauls. Eeeeek!

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the offer, but no need to worry about me! (Well, other than all the darned work I need to get done here today... ;) )

See you online!

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Waaaul!

;)