Warning: Post about religion. Skip as needed.

[thistlechaser]

While reading the news, I came across a story: Worried about the lure of the devil, a Vatican-linked university on Thursday debuted its latest course offering: a class on Satanism, black magic and exorcism. After reading the whole thing, I was left boggling. It hit me that people actually believe the devil is a real thing, as real as a cat or a dog or a door. It floored me in the same way finding an adult who believed in Santa or the Tooth Fairy would.

I can't even wrap my head around thinking that black magic is something real and/or works... Magic! Kids quickly learn that there's no such thing as magic, but there are adults out there thinking that it's possible?

Don't get me wrong, I know that humans are all too capable of doing evil things, but just as good acts come from within someone, the evil does as well.

This is the same sort of problem I had with Alcoholics Anonymous. (In college, I took a number of classes dealing in substance abuse.) In AA you give over all power/responsibility to "a higher power". It's not your fault you drink too much! And it's not your power that'll stop you from drinking! Trust in the higher power to get you out of this mess that wasn't your doing to begin with! That drives me batty. Adults should take responsibility for their own actions (good and bad!), not try to pass it off onto something else.

Comments

[jakflak.livejournal.com]

Out of curiosity, do you beleive in God?

[kirbyk.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with the sentiment - it's sometimes bizarre to me to see people actively worried about Satan like he's a real person.

But a _lot_ of people believe in things like this. Most people believe in some kind of sentient supernatural being (and, bizarrely to me, most of these people would feel just like I do if someone claimed to worship Zeus, but can't see how worshipping the Christian God is anything like a mythology.)

But at the end of the day, most theists are sane and rational people. Most Americans believe that prayer can work, but God helps those who help themselves - if you ask, He'll give you the power to succeed, but you have to do the work. It's kind of a self-confidence trick. And hey, it makes sense that it'd work, with or without a God. That's the level that most people take it to.

And it's as blindingly obvious to most of them that God exists as it is to me that no such thing is true. I don't understand why most people believe it, but I don't appreciate it when they aren't willing to accept that I can live a decent moral life without God, so I try to extend the courtesy and not claim that they can't live a sane rational life with God. I don't understand the how of that, much like they don't understand how I am moral without God, but I'm willing to exchange the one kind of respect for another.

But when they don't extend that courtesy, yes, I think of them as insane people.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Yes. I try to go with "live and let live" as much as I can as well. While it confuses me and makes me sad that people feel the need to believe in a god or a devil, it's their life... It just makes me sad that they can't see it for the crutch that it is.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

The short answer to that is "no". The longer answer is complex, and I've rewritten it five (six... seven...) times now. When I was younger, I used to think that it was possible that there could be a god (or gods or goddess, whatever), but the more I learned, the less that seemed possible. Also, when I was younger, I wanted a god to exist. How easy it'd be, if some bad thing came into your life, that you could say "it's god's will"! How easy it'd be to have that support there all the time ("Bad day at work? Hey, god loves me so what's it matter?" "My life sucks, but hey, after I die it'll be one big party!") But as I got older, I recognized those as crutches. (I'm not trying to offend anyone, but that's how I see religion.)

While trying to answer your question, I examined myself and my feelings, and I find that even the hope of there being a god or an afterlife is totally gone. Is that a sad thing? Maybe to someone who believes, but not to me. (Again, not to offend as I go on, this is just what I feel.) To me, it feels like I've matured. "Grown up." I stand on my own two feet, I don't need to rely on some higher power to blame for the bad stuff or credit for the good. I make my own way, and that feels both right and nice.

[jakflak.livejournal.com]

I see. Thank you for the answer; I was just curious.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Welcome! :)

[peppygrowlithe.livejournal.com]

I know I'm a teddy bear first and a science-major-atheist second, so try not to giggle at me. ;)

Just keep in mind that children are taught in American society that magic isn't real, but remember that America isn't the entire world and other countries, on the whole, tend to be more "magic-inclined" than we are. It's not necessarily foolishness to believe in magic elsewhere, and you have to try to accept that. I've never heard you criticize and speak badly of Native Americans for believing that everything has a spirit, for example, because I don't think you -do- think badly (even if you disagree). I do think you think badly of Christian theologies. (Shh, I do too, I'm just not open about it at all because I'm a weenie. :) )

I don't understand organized religion. I mean, it's nice, and I personally don't think America could have gotten to where it is now without Christianity. (Yeah, I'm of the opinion that America is a good country. Please don't flay me alive, I'm very sensitive on my skin!) I think it's nice to teach people morals, give people something to believe in, and offer a crutch to keep people moving on.

That said, I just don't understand how, if you choose to believe in God, you can choose which one. Why is Christian God better than Allah or Buddha or Zeus? What -really- boggles my mind is how people can come into quarrel over whether or not Moses or Jesus or Cutie McLuvLuv is the savior. How the heck can you -tell-? You can't even argue "Look at how organized the world is, there -must- be some divine power in store!" for something like -that-!

Incidentally, blah blah, chaos theory, no free will, product of environment, blah blah etc. ;)

PS: I don't know if you're reading the Hunters books, not sure if Katie talked to you, but if you have been, isn't Yellowfang awesome? She so reminds me of you. ;)

PPS: Not because she's old, either!

[peppygrowlithe.livejournal.com]

Ha ha!! I made a super long comment and you HAVE to read it!!! Such is the price you must pay for being acquainted with me, foolish mortal!!

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Replying to your comment totally out of order! Take that, chaos theory! ;)

PS: I don't know if you're reading the Hunters books, not sure if Katie talked to you, but if you have been, isn't Yellowfang awesome? She so reminds me of you. ;)

Ack! Eek! Don't tell me that! I have the first three, but I can't read them till after I finish the Dark Tower book! 300 pages read, 500 or more to go. :p I'm dying to read the Hunters books though, they sound so great!

PPS: Not because she's old, either!

Just for that, I'm going to be mean to you in the rest of this comment! Ha ha! Or hmm, would it be more mean to not reply to you at all? ;)

It's not necessarily foolishness to believe in magic elsewhere, and you have to try to accept that.

I wonder if I'm disagreeing with the wording or the idea of that? Belief in magic is foolish, no matter where on the Earth you're standing at the time. However, acceptance of the belief in magic does differ. Is that what you're saying, too? (I don't believe that Joe McNativeAfrican person is less foolish for believing in magic than Mary American. Joe just doesn't know better -- he has an "excuse" for it, but it's still foolish to believe in it.)

I've never heard you criticize and speak badly of Native Americans for believing that everything has a spirit, for example, because I don't think you -do- think badly (even if you disagree). I do think you think badly of Christian theologies.

Yes and yes, though it may be out of lack-of-knowledge on my part. As far as I know, NAs never dragged someone behind a truck (eh, or horse) because they were gay. It's possible that they did, I just don't know of any cases. A whole lot of bad stuff is done in the name of Christian religion. Does that make the whole thing bad? Nope. But it does put a very strong bad tast e in my mouth about it. Perhaps if I read about NA folks doing bad things in the name of religion, I'd feel the same.

I think it's nice to teach people morals, give people something to believe in, and offer a crutch to keep people moving on.

I'd strongly question the morals it teaches. Some of them are fine, but far far from all of them. (Only one love is okay! No being different, you!) And the offering of a crutch? While I hate (and envy) it, I suppose if some people must have it... But really, if they acted more like Kirby discribed above, I'd be a whole lot happier. (You do and believe what you like, I'll do and believe what I like, neither forces anything on the other.)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Or I could just delete it... ;)

[firebyrd.livejournal.com]

I'm going to vote for the lack of knowledge thing. First of all, putting all Indians in the same group is just...insane, because different tribes could be very, very different in their beliefs and such. Some did bad things, such as keep slaves. Some did very bad things. My five-greats grandfather was a Pawnee who stopped human sacrifice in one of the Pawnee tribes.

On the other hand, some things, such as scalping, were things they actually learned from Europeans (the French, in this case).

[kawaru.livejournal.com]

I know you don't really believe that. The devil made you type it.

m i rite?

^_-

[kriatyrr.livejournal.com]

That's almost exactly how I feel/think about it.

Also, I'm going to add you to my friends now, because I don't read friendsfriends as much as I used to, and I don't want to miss out. ^_^

[peppygrowlithe.livejournal.com]

It would be nice if religion worked like "Go your own way, I'll go mine!", but hey. Theologism is stubbornness. I think a lot of opinions the American public possess now are poorly thought out, and it can be difficult to keep from wanting to push these opinions on them. (I, personally, have a very strong pro-choice mindset, and while I know I should accept people for their pro-life mindsets and not force my opinions onto theirs, sometimes that can be something very difficult to keep in - I can think of so much for it, so little against it, most particularly that it prevents others from making the decision for themselves. I try to apply that to theology, too, because if you're dedicating your time, energy, money, lifestyle, opinions, dreams, your very well being to the Mr. Big Kahuna, you're pretty damn well 100% certain you're right, and you want people to see this rightness. I know that doesn't stop it from being wrong, stupid, or narrow-minded, but it's not irrational. Wow, I should have made this an entire new paragraph instead of just a little parentheses tag, huh?)

Yeah, religion isn't one of my stronger arguing points - although ask me about how Noah's Ark proves the theory of evolution one day! ;)

About the Hunters books, I'm honestly not certain you'll like them. I love the world, love the idea, even most of the characters (though the main cat is annoying), but it's written with nine and ten year olds in mind. The vocabulary and sentence structure are basic - not necessarily a bad thing, of course, but it may prove to be a bit of an insult to your intelligence, particularly if, er, Dark Tower is an adult's book. Still, I guess it's like Pokemon: yeah, it's not the most consistent thing in the world, and yeah, it's geared toward kids half my age, but the heart is there. *teardrop*

(I had like three other paragraphs but deleted them because they sounded dumb and would have made this comment even more screen-scrolling. Thank me!)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

(I, personally, have a very strong pro-choice mindset, and while I know I should accept people for their pro-life mindsets and not force my opinions onto theirs, sometimes that can be something very difficult to keep in

The pro-life cause is like religion, isn't it? I have no problem with someone being pro-life... if they don't try to force it onto others. But like religion, they aren't very happy with it being just about their own body/life...

On the books: I read kids books all the time, so hopefully that won't be an issue for me!

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Aww, thanks! :)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Know what else the devil makes me do? *fondles a Waru-kittygirl!*

Heh heh heh.

:)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I'm going to vote for the lack of knowledge thing. First of all, putting all Indians in the same group is just...insane, because different tribes could be very, very different in their beliefs and such.

Heh, true! Okay, we'll go with the "lack of knowledge" thing. :)

[gbeans.livejournal.com]

As a child I went to a Baptist school from Pre K - 8th grade. I count myself fortunate for this because I got a lot of solid moral and emotional foundation from this strict rearing. (I simply cannot fathom doing anything less than my best. And when I entered the public school system for high school I was stunned and sickened by how people treated each other, their education, and themselves.) Anyhow, I say that only to let you know where I'm coming from.

When I was in 8th grade everyone in our grade had to attend a week long life seminar with the adults. It wasn't optional, and many adults and elders of the church attended as well. One of the topics that had fascinated me the most that was Satan and demon possesssion. These people very genuinely believe in possession and that Satan and his minions walk amongst us. They gave testimonials of exocisms and whatnot during our life training.

I think.. In the end I am better for having seen the world as they see it, for I have also seen the blind hate that's shown to homosexuals, etc. For myself.. It's hard to turn entirely away from what I've been taught. I obviously don't hate gays since that's pure foolishness. But on the other paw, I also believe that there are things bigger than me out there (both good and bad) and I am humbled by them.

It may not be the path you walk, but it's the one I've chosen.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

It may not be the path you walk, but it's the one I've chosen.

And so long as you're happy with it and don't hurt others, I'm A-OK with it. :) (Eh, not that you need my permission or anything, of course!)

I think it could be interesting to see that side things!

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Grrr. It's hard to reply to these comments out of worry of offending someone. My original reply was much longer than the one that got posted above, but I deleted it because I wasn't sure how it'd come off. :p

[gbeans.livejournal.com]

[laughs] Thistle, you aren't going to offend me. I'm quite aware of the contradictions my personal beliefs hold ^o^

Do I think Satan or a demon in physical form is going to jump out of the toilet and rip my throat out? No. (Though that was what they were telling us at the time, no joke x.x; ) Do I think there is evil in the world beyond that of humans? Yep.