My unpopular (and somewhat hypocritical) opinion (FFXI only)

[thistlechaser]

Note: This is only my opinion. I am telling no one what to do, and at the very most I make one suggestion at the end of this post. It's your life, it's your computer, it's your game. Play it as you will. This, however, is my opinion on things.

I don't like Windower programs, and I'm glad S-E is making an effort to shut them down. I don't use one, and I don't intend to (the "hypocritical" part of the subject line is because I do use a third party screenshot tool).

"But this is my game! My computer! I can use a windower if I like! I own the game! I should be able to decide!" Wrong. When you signed up for the game, you agreed to follow the ToS. You didn't agree to follow just the parts of the ToS that you liked. Don't like that? Then stop playing the game. No one tricked you, they didn't lure you in, get hooked on the game, then sprung the ToS on you -- you were supposed to read it before you signed on for the first time. (I know, I know: Who reads those things? But that's not the point. You agreed to follow the rules, no matter if you read them or not. No matter if you like them or not.)

Posted elsewhere on LJ was a link to screenshots of a GM banning someone for using the Windower. My first reaction? "Good!"

People say "But why aren't they going after X, Y, or Z? Why are they going after the windower?", but how do you know they aren't? Unless you work for S-E, you don't know what efforts they're making against whatever other problems are going on. Just because you saw one X or Y or Z happening, does not mean that nothing is being done to try to stop that, too.

And here's the one suggestion I offer to everyone reading this: STOP TALKING ABOUT THE WINDOWER ON-GAME! I mean sheesh, every single thing you input into the game is logged. The logs are saved. I've seen them. If you say "Oh boy, I'm using a windower and it's great!" you have admitted that you are breaking the ToS, which your account can be terminated for. It just utterly boggles me how openly people are talking about this.

You all are my friends, and it would make me very sad to see you vanish for something that's so preventable. "Oh, S-E won't ban people for this! There are too many people doing it!" Again: You do not (cannot!) know that. You cannot be certain. If you insist upon cheating (which it is, no matter how much you want to say otherwise), then at least please do not admit to it on-game.

I'm strongly tempted to turn comments off on this post, because I know the majority (or all) of my FFXI-playing friends list will strongly disagree with it, but instead I'll leave them on. Go ahead and flame/argue/mock me if you like.

Edit for non-players: I'm sorry, usually I try to define game-slang for you all, but I see by the replies that this time I dropped the ball. Quoting my explanation from comments, this is what a Windower is:

When FFXI runs, it demands full-screen. If you alt-tab to switch between windows, the whole game crashes. This is highly annoying and rude, especially for those of us who only have one PC online. The Windower counters that -- it lets the game run in a window. This permits you do to harmless things (like looking up info), but the problem is it also makes it way too easy for people to cheat (run scripts or bots in the background, hack stuff, etc).

With the scripts currently out there, the Windower now has the potential to ruin the game for all honest players (no exaggeration there).

Honest people can use the Windower in an honest way (sort of, it would still break the ToS, even if they don't cheat with it), but there are way too many dishonest people out there who will use it for bad things.

Edit2: I'm leaving work now, so any replies will be answered tomorrow. Please don't spam me too badly, A and D. :P

Comments

[piperz.livejournal.com]

Question, since I've never played the game and have little to no clue what's going on here, but... can a windower be traced/tracked if someone doesn't let on that they're using it? I'm just curious if you know. =)

In any case, I was reading the link you posted to, and it did seem a bit unfair from one point of view, but otherwise, it seemed very intently punishing; afterall, if the person in question knew that windowers were illegal third party downloads that could mean suspension or termination, then they knew the consequences when downloading and using the program, thus if termination or suspention arose, it was at their own accord for their use of the devices.

Personally, and I dont even play the game, I say "GOOD!" as well. Cheating, breaking ToS and other misc. things are just... stupid... they are a waste of time, space, effort and make other players hurt in the long run, the players that are doing nothing wrong.

Blah. It's kind of like how they took the stamps away from Subway because someone found out a way to duplicate them. It hurts other people,in the long run.

In any case, as to the person that got banned at that link, I say this: "Serves you right."

*Huffs softly*

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

but... can a windower be traced/tracked if someone doesn't let on that they're using it? I'm just curious if you know. =)

I'm sure everyone who currently uses one is curious about that, too! I suspect not, but I could be wrong. If I am wrong and S-E can tell who is using them, then a lot of people will be crying tonight.

Cheating, breaking ToS and other misc. things are just... stupid... they are a waste of time, space, effort and make other players hurt in the long run, the players that are doing nothing wrong.

That's my opinion on it, yeah. I play fair (other than the screenshot program, which hurts no one other than perhaps S-E's worry about copyright foo), and I'd like to think everyone else does, too.

Blah. It's kind of like how they took the stamps away from Subway because someone found out a way to duplicate them. It hurts other people,in the long run.

Oh, is that why it ended? Heh! I used to love that program! Years ago I ate at Subway all the time, and it was so nice to get a free sub now and then.

[loneguardian.livejournal.com]

Eh, I might use a windower, but you do have a lot of valid points which I've thought about often. I dunno. I kinna agree, kinna disagree, but respect your feelings toward it and won't try to convince you otherwise. I just don't see what makes a windower worse than a 3rd party screenshot program, honestly. I only used the windower at first to keep the damn spyware that was on my computer from booting me off the game every half hour with popup windows that made me lose fullscreen. Then I kinna got addicted to being able to look up skillchains on a whim. 9.9;

Mainly, I just don't see the difference between a windower and using a second computer. I use my other computer for work stuff 98% of the time and it's not hooked up to the network anyway, so I can't use it. PS2 users can look up stuff on a computer. Meh. The thing that pissed me off though was the new 'plugins' to the windower. I only want the program so I can look up skillchains without walking upstairs to dad's computer and looking them up there, thus taking less time, not some program to give me info that I otherwise wouldn't be able to see. So ticked that something harmless/convenient got turned into something to cheat with. Greedy people. >:|

[piperz.livejournal.com]

a) I suppose we'll find out sooner or later if they can track the Windower programs.


b) Yeah, screenshot tools don't affect gameplay, though, and even if they are worried about copyright stuff, it's not like someone is claiming they made the thing in the screenshot. =) Silly S-E....

c) OMG!DIE yeah... I was all into the whole Subway thing too, and was always happy to get a free sub even at the cost of a medium drink and maybe a bag of chips. =) But yeah, that's why it ended. I actually found that out yesterday when me and a friend went and got some subs, and he was talking about it to the chick there. =( I miss da free subbies.

[tersa.livejournal.com]

So for this reader who is interested but not a player--what the heck is a Windower?

[metron-ariston.livejournal.com]

I may not play FFXI, but I agree with this psot. Cheating is laaaaaaame.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I just don't see what makes a windower worse than a 3rd party screenshot program, honestly.

If you and I were the only two people using these programs, I'd fully agree with you. I trust you not to cheat, but the problem is the thousands of other people out there. They use the Windower to cheat. (Yeah, it's possible for some skillful people to use bots and stuff without a Windower, but for the herds of stupid people who want to cheat, the Windower is a godsend.) As far as I know, the screenshot program cannot be used to change the game-playing experience in any way. I'd say "it hurts no one", but I'm sure S-E's copyright lawyers would disagree with that.

Mainly, I just don't see the difference between a windower and using a second computer.

Same reply as above. The massive number of fishing bots didn't happen so long ago! Can you imagine those "in-zone warpers" becoming as popular as fishing bots were? Because that's where we're headed, if S-E does nothing about this.

So mostly I'm agreeing with you: If there was no chance of the Windower being used for cheating, I'd have less issue with it. (But not "no issue". I'd have the same amount of issue with it as I do with the screenshot tool.) The problem is, it is a danger, and the Windower could very well ruin the game for honest players if S-E doesn't start doing something about it.

I mean man, just the idea of hundreds of people doing that in-zone warping makes me sick to my stomach. The game would be impossible for honest players to play!

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Hi hi!

When FFXI runs, it demands full-screen. If you alt-tab to switch between windows, the whole game crashes. This is highly annoying and rude, especially for those of us who only have one PC online. The Windower counters that -- it lets the game run in a window. This permits you do to harmless things (like looking up info), but the problem is it also makes it way too easy for people to cheat (run scripts or bots in the background, hack stuff, etc).

With the scripts currently out there, the Windower now has the potential to ruin the game for all honest players (no exaggeration there).

Honest people can use the Windower in an honest way (sort of, it would still break the ToS, even if they don't cheat with it), but there are way too many dishonest people out there who will use it for bad things.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Yay! Thanks! :)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

a) I suppose we'll find out sooner or later if they can track the Windower programs.

Yeah. Probably by the massive crying-out of people on LJ comms. :P

b) Yeah, screenshot tools don't affect gameplay, though, and even if they are worried about copyright stuff, it's not like someone is claiming they made the thing in the screenshot. =) Silly S-E....

That's why I have less issue with the screenshotting tool, yeah. It's not like someone could say "Hey, look! There's no copyright notice on this screenshot, so hey, I'll claim I drew it!"

[firebyrd.livejournal.com]

I feel so stupid much of the time. There's tons of slang and such I don't get and 'windower' is among that. If it's cheating, though, I don't see what's wrong with shutting it down. I also don't see how you taking screenshots can be put in the same category and thus hypocritical. Taking pretty pictures that in no way affects the game is very different from cheating.

[kelen.livejournal.com]

This is pretty funny.. considering how hypocritical you are being. :) Sorry, I really don't mean to flame as I do agree with most of what you are saying.

What difference is there between your sceen shot program and the windower? (Windower without cheats I mean.) Both are third party programs and thus against the rules according to game policy.. yet you slam one while using the other nearly every day? You can't take the high moral spot on this issue as you break the rules yourself all the time. ;)

The windower without the plugins that give you access to things you don't normally have in game I don't have an issue with. FFXI turns your computer into a highly priced ps2. The windower lets you have your computer again. More than anything I disagree with SE making the program deny computer users something computers were purposely designed to have - IE: The ability to have multiple programs open at once.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Oops, my bad! Usually I try to explain things for non-players, but if there is ever something else you don't understand, feel free to poke me!

Quoting my reply to a non-player above you:

"When FFXI runs, it demands full-screen. If you alt-tab to switch between windows, the whole game crashes. This is highly annoying and rude, especially for those of us who only have one PC online. The Windower counters that -- it lets the game run in a window. This permits you do to harmless things (like looking up info), but the problem is it also makes it way too easy for people to cheat (run scripts or bots in the background, hack stuff, etc).

With the scripts currently out there, the Windower now has the potential to ruin the game for all honest players (no exaggeration there).

Honest people can use the Windower in an honest way (sort of, it would still break the ToS, even if they don't cheat with it), but there are way too many dishonest people out there who will use it for bad things."

I also don't see how you taking screenshots can be put in the same category and thus hypocritical.

Only in that both break the letter of the ToS. The ToS says no other programs ("third-party programs", ones intended to interact with FFXI) may be used while the game is running. Something like Winamp would be fine, or Netscape or something like that, but if you run a script meant to change things in the game, then you're in the wrong.

[pomr.livejournal.com]

I can see both sides of the issue, I really can. It /is/ a violation of the TOS, and if having the ability to run things in windows makes it possible for the less adept user to run other programs, like fishing bots or cheat by warping instantly to and claim critters or mining points or the like, then I guess running the game in a window ultimately is a bad thing.

On the other hand, I /hate/ it when something pops up, I lose full screen, and then PlayOnline crashes. Hate it. With a hatey hate. A special brand of hatey hate that is particularly acidic. I also don't like being able to do nothing but FFXI when I'm on the PC, being able to look up Skillchains, or what merchants are where is a wonderful thing.

I HATE that windower 3.2 comes with that TParty plugin as the default configuration, instead of an option. THAT is definitely cheating, even if it isn't a major cheat.

I'm not sure if I'm going to reinstall the newest version or not, now. I really love the windowing capabilities, but obviously don't want to be kicked off the game. I don't think they can tell you're running in a window, however, I am pretty sure that the windower stuff is purely client side.

I dunno though, I could be wrong.

[tersa.livejournal.com]

I was wondering if it was something like that...

Wish there was a way you could use it for the 'good' reasons but not the bad. I think S-E should devote more time into that then the easy 'out' of banning Windowers.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

This is pretty funny.. considering how hypocritical you are being. :) ...

What difference is there between your sceen shot program and the windower? (Windower without cheats I mean.)

That's the point (and why I don't see it as hypocritical as it might otherwise be). You cannot add "without cheats, I mean" to the Windower. It's impossible for S-E to let people use it in an honest way, because how would they know who is being honest with it and who isn't?

Could you imagine those in-game warpers becoming as commonplace as fishing bots were at their worst? Because the Windower can bring that about (and as far as I know, no screenshot program can). As bad as fishing bots were, in-zone warpers, people who could walk through walls, things of that level would be a thousand times worse.

Can you say that a screenshot program would ever cause issues like that?

The windower without the plugins that give you access to things you don't normally have in game I don't have an issue with. FFXI turns your computer into a highly priced ps2.

I agree with you that that is highly annoying, but we did agree to play that way.

I also agree that using a third-party screenshot tool is breaking the ToS as well (I never denied that and never will, and if I got caught with one I'd accept whatever punishment was handed down), however, who does it hurt? At the very, very most, some S-E copyright lawyers might have to put in some extra hours to sue me. But would it hurt you? Joe Random MNK? Anyone? No. The Windower has the potential to ruin the game. Heck, it's threatened that in the past! If S-E ignores it, people will look back longingly on the troubles of the fishing bot times.

That is the difference I'm seeing.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Agreed. But the problem is, even if S-E itself introduced a way to play the game in a window, you'd still have the script/bot problem. I suppose it's probably a matter of money: it's easier to ban all windowers than to try to fight the bots/scripts directly...

[kelen.livejournal.com]

The windower is a separate program from the TP/bloodpact cheats. You have to choose to add in those programs. So yes, you can indeed use the windower without the cheats. Until this version of it the windower didn't even have those additions. Your arguement for this isn't all that valid.

[kelen.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking of using it just to be able to use my fucking virus scanner. :P I can't run both it and FFXI thanks to it crashing FFXI all the damn time. >.<

[loneguardian.livejournal.com]

I hate to break it to you, but the bot programs do not need FFXI in a windowed mode to run. At all. Nor does it make it any easier to run them. I know because my sibling desided to poke at a fishingbot waaaay back before the fishing change happened. She pretty much gushed happily at me that she got it to work all by herself (she was 14 at the time) and how she just had to set parameters, start the script, minimize it to the system tray, and open FFXI. She didn't know what a windower was, and frankly I don't think I did either at the time. Fortunately I guilted her into uninstalling it and she doesn't even play FFXI anymore now, so yay. 9.9

At any rate, I assume the other hack programs run the same way, or have windowers built into them. The windower is not the problem, you said yourself it wasn't much of an issue if people you trusted use them because you know we won't abuse them, the cheaters are.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

But there are way more cheats than those. Any script you need to start once you're logged in. Fishingbots, AH bots, warping, whatever.

[tersa.livejournal.com]

I don't think they can tell you're running in a window, however, I am pretty sure that the windower stuff is purely client side.

Unless, of course, S-E includes something in one of their patch or upgrade revs which includes essentially spyware that would examine your process list while you've got the game running and look for the names of the common Windower executables and send it to them along with 'your game' as you're playing.

Might want to take a really good look at the ToS and see if there is anything mentioned in there about that.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I agree with just about everything you said. :) I'm not willing to turn my virus scanner off, but I curse every time it updates and causes a popup which boots me off. And I'd love to be able to look up info while playing, but the problem is is that that ability is the same one that lets people run scripts and such...

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

My reply was along that thought, too. My virus scanner is the problem, and it's not something I'm willing to turn off. If I were to use a windower, it would be to keep that popup from kicking me...

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's quite a thought. I could see them doing that...

[loneguardian.livejournal.com]

Those don't need a windower to run, as I said above.

[loneguardian.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's why I even looked for one in the first place @_@

[kelen.livejournal.com]

Yes, but I'm not arguing in favor of those. :) I don't agree with cheats, and really have the same view of the windower/fraps as you do, but I'm going to disagree with you standing up and spouting off about something that really does no harm when you are breaking the rules yourself. You might as well claim that because you run fraps people will bot. That's foolishness. It doesn't matter if you use fraps or not. People are going to try to cheat no matter what you personally do.
So why is it so horrible a thing to run the windower by itself, without any of the cheat programs that are packaged with it, and fraps isn't?

You keep assuming I am arguing for all cheats there. I'm not.

Windower /without cheats/ = okay in my mind. Against the rules? Yes. Horrible, no. It doesn't do any harm without the cheats and allows me to run the virus scanner that causes me horrible problems otherwise.

But ONLY without the cheats, which are separate programs and can EASILY be removed from the packaging, and easily turned off.

[loneguardian.livejournal.com]

*tries to beat it into your head that those programs can and do run WITHOUT the windower, or have windowers installed in the bot's code, dammit* ;3

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

First off: Gah! I'd twitch endlessly if my sister tried a bot. (Well, okay, I'd fall over dead if she played any games at all, but that's beside the point.)

Hm. The few fishing bot scripts I saw did recommend use of a windower with them. (I don't look at/for the scrips often, because they make me too angry.) The crafting bot one I saw wanted to be run in a window, too...

The windower is not the problem, you said yourself it wasn't much of an issue if people you trusted use them because you know we won't abuse them, the cheaters are.

But then the question comes down to: How does S-E know a honest windower user from a dishonest? That's asking an awful lot from them... And if they had wanted it played in a window, that's how they would have released it.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I can only reply to (or read) one of your comments at a time, dear. :) Don't beat me for something I haven't gotten to yet. These comments are coming in way faster than I can keep up with!

You saw bots that can. I saw bots that need a windower. With as many bots and bot-coders out there, I doubt there's One True Way that they run.

[kelen.livejournal.com]

And yeah, fishingbots, etc have NOTHING to do with the windower. You might as well claim that your fraps enables you to bot. :P

Get your facts right, Thistle. @.@

The windower is a separate program. Really. The TP notice, bloodpact timer, and shit are separate programs they stuck in the zip file. You remove those and you get only the windower without any trouble.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

My issue is (and the issue I'm arguing with Aurian through various comment-threads) you cannot separate the windower from the cheaters. It makes bots (and other cheats) easier to run. (Aurian says all bots she saw can run without it, the ones I saw need windowers to run. YMMV.)

The difference I see is that screenshot programs have nothing to do with botting/cheating -- cannot hurt or help them.

Windower /without cheats/ = okay in my mind.

That's what I'm disagreeing with you on. Forget the TP/bloodpack/MP tracking, ignore all the plug-ins and all that, I worry that it will make cheating easier for unskilled cheaters. (Highly skilled cheaters would probably cheat just fine without it, but "stupid" people would have an easier time cheating with a windower.)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

We disagree on that, as I replied above. :)

[firebyrd.livejournal.com]

Reading through this whole comment thread, I'm thinking that I'm mostly not suffering from playing through the PS2. I can't log on to check things out while I'm on because of having to drag the DSL modem into the living room to play, but I don't ever have popups kicking me off...

[sylf.livejournal.com]

You know, I said that people would be getting banned for using the windower yesterday and people thought I was an idiot. --; All I can say is "I told you so," I guess.

And I 100% agree. If SE breaks the windower every update, that's a pretty clear way of saying that they don't want people to use the damned thing. Gah.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

*snugs lots* People don't want to listen. I wish they would, but...

[gbeans.livejournal.com]

The subway by my house still gives out stamps o.o [mails thistle a handful.]

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Hee hee, thanks!

[sylf.livejournal.com]

Hehe, I never remembered to get my stamps when I ate at Subway. I have a card in my wallet that's half full - I probably could have gotten like 6 free sandwiches if I were on the ball. >.>;;

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Man, you all are making me miss Subway! I've not eaten there in going on two years.