Beware the bell ringers (RL, TV)
Dec. 1st, 2011 09:41 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
thistlechaserThis time of year, seems like most every store has a Salvation Army 'Santa' outside, ringing a bell and trying to get donations. As if their name weren't warning enough, they're quite the group of homophobes. So, if you like love and caring for your fellow man (no matter if he cares for his fellow man), resist tossing your spare change into their buckets.
On a related note, I know I'm mostly preaching to the choir here, but I just don't understand how anyone could be anti-love. This is such a nice commercial from Australian, part of the effort to end marriage discrimination:
Love is love! Love is good!
And totally unrelated, if you like good storylines and don't mind animation (or like it!), you should be watching the new Thunder Cats cartoons. I'm so impressed at the quality of storyline and writing in them! At the end of this week's ep I gasped out loud and went 'Oh god!'. Plus, the animation is outstanding, too. The voice acting is great. It's really got the total package.
On a related note, I know I'm mostly preaching to the choir here, but I just don't understand how anyone could be anti-love. This is such a nice commercial from Australian, part of the effort to end marriage discrimination:
Love is love! Love is good!
And totally unrelated, if you like good storylines and don't mind animation (or like it!), you should be watching the new Thunder Cats cartoons. I'm so impressed at the quality of storyline and writing in them! At the end of this week's ep I gasped out loud and went 'Oh god!'. Plus, the animation is outstanding, too. The voice acting is great. It's really got the total package.
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Date: 2011-12-02 02:18 am (UTC)Looks like it's time to find another cause to donate to during Christmas. D:
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Date: 2011-12-02 04:08 am (UTC)they are telling them they don't accept gay people into their -private- organization
I have big giant serious issues with that. If they didn't accept black people, would that be okay? If they didn't accept women?
You're shaking a big stick at them when there are plenty of organizations who ARE cruel and intolerant and do little or nothing for the people.
Just because there are more hateful groups out there, doesn't mean the less hateful ones are okay.
BUT they aren't making a cruel statement, they are making a choice as an organization which, according to the laws of our country, is their choice.
I strongly disagree. Saying "You can't join because you're gay" is extremely cruel... no matter if they're permitted to make that rule within the law or not. How is discrimination ever anything but cruel? If I said "I only want to RP with straight people", I'd get strung up -- rightfully so.
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Date: 2011-12-02 04:29 am (UTC)Your second point? I followed it with: ". I agree that, no matter how much a person helps, they are still a jerk if they act that way. It doesn't make up for the wrong they do. BUT they aren't making a cruel statement, they are making a choice as an organization which, according to the laws of our country, is their choice." I never excused cruelty, I made sure NOT to.
And point 3:
Its not disliking gay people or not wanting to be around them that is WRONG. Its being cruel to them for their choices. When you get to this point you are actually telling people that not wanting to have anything to do with someone due to their own personal beliefs, religion or whatever is wrong. Which is ALSO discrimination. You can't get equality by forcing everyone to play in everyone's playground even if they don't want to. Its hypocritical and its own form of discrimination. Anyone may choose not to have anything to do with whoever they want for whatever reasons they want. Its not until they begin to try to force that on others or voice said intolerance in a mean way that they step into being cruel.
"If I said "I only want to RP with straight people", I'd get strung up -- rightfully so."
Basically you're telling me that if a young christian girl/boy didn't want to hang out with gay people because it was uncomfortable to their beliefs...They are cruel. how cruel is it to force someone to hang around and be uncomfortable? If they voiced their opinion rudely and spewed intolerance then that would be a terrible cruelty but if they stated it plainly and politely, just as the SA did, its a grey area where people begin to disrespect eachother's 'boundaries. Which only breeds more hate.
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Date: 2011-12-02 04:31 am (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2011-12-02 04:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-12-02 04:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-12-02 04:48 am (UTC)But they ARE discriminating. They're picking and choosing based on sexual orientation. The definition of discrimination is "prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, esp. on the grounds of race, age, or sex", that is exactly what they're doing.
Its not disliking gay people or not wanting to be around them that is WRONG.
Disagreed. If I say "I don't want to be around any gay people", how could that be anything but wrong?
Anyone may choose not to have anything to do with whoever they want for whatever reasons they want.
Agreed... if you're talking about basing it on the person. If I say "Boy that Mary is an ass, she has horrible taste in music and I don't like her at all", then fine. If I say "Mary is black, so I don't want her around me", that's not fine.
Basically you're telling me that if a young christian girl/boy didn't want to hang out with gay people because it was uncomfortable to their beliefs...
Just hearing that makes me so angry and sad. Why in the world should anyone judge another person based on what they like to do with their private parts? No one no one no one can say "That person sleeps with the same gender, thus I know he's a bad person". The two things do not go hand in hand. If standing next to a gay person makes a Christian uncomfortable? Then they need to deal with their issues. If a racist doesn't want to stand next to a person of color, that's no more okay.
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Date: 2011-12-02 07:32 am (UTC)This isn't an argument about whether people should or shouldn't like eachother and for how many cookies. Its the fact that you turned something that is obviously not aggressive into something ultimately evil. Its a private christian organization who obviously all share the view (or they wouldn't tolerate it). They aren't denying anyone charity, not even gay people. They just keep certain requirements that they agree on. There are plenty of groups that are like that and not mean about it. There are plenty about it that are like that in an aggressive way and then there are also those who aren't like that. I think its out of line to condemn a private organization for voicing their opinion in a polite and reserved manner. Not only are you pointing your finger away from the ones who ARE aggressive and do behave in a cruelly intolerant manner...But you're attempting to deny the many people they help each year to make a statement that is largely exaggerated.
Its cool to demand respect and equal treatment but exclusive organizations based of of sexual orientation, ethnic background, religion/beliefs and gender have always existed. Most of them aren't trying to be mean to people, like the SA...Unfortunately some are. Those are the ones I would be spending my time condemning.
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Date: 2011-12-02 07:51 am (UTC)Considering the organization also prohibits gambling, pornography, alcohol and abortion (except in extreme cases), it isn't like they are centering on or attacking gay people. They don't even really lot people be promiscuous at all. They even seem to take an active level of control over divorce and remarrying. They have a lot of requirements and control over what their people do. Moreso than I even imagined. If you read the rest of their site they're very strict on EVERYTHING. Its extremely exclusive and I don't know anyone, straight or gay who could or would do any of that. Its more like they adhere very strictly to their scripture. Which goes from moral vs political to a religious debate. Something I don't do online. Its always ugly and rarely stays on topic. =)
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Date: 2011-12-02 08:37 am (UTC)I get what you're trying to say, but one of those things is not like the other. Gambling, pornography, and alcohol can all be abused and exploitative. Homosexuality can't. It has no business being lumped with the others.
And that other people do worse wrongs doesn't mean SA isn't doing something wrong, either. Of course I'm going to condemn actual hate groups, but that doesn't mean I'm going to give money to organizations like SA that endorses discriminatory views when I can support other organization that do the same thing without the discrimination.
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Date: 2011-12-02 06:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-12-02 06:20 pm (UTC)And besides, suppressing sexuality is harmful and damaging in itself. And as a few people have stated already, the Salvationists can believe what they want, but so can I and I choose to not donate to an organization that encourages behavior that I find unsavory. There are other organizations that do good work minus all of that.
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Date: 2011-12-02 08:22 pm (UTC)I have a right to believe anything I want. If I think anyone who has sex with anything other than a lamp shade is evil, I can fully believe that... but I cannot act on it. If I say "No one can have membership in my club unless you promise to only have sex with lamp shades and never anything else", am I okay within the law? Maybe. Am I right? Okay? In any other way? No.
I don't think we're going to come to an understanding on this. I think they're fully in the wrong, I would never give them money, and I hope others wouldn't as well. You disagree. Sorry if this post bothered you, but it is my feelings on the matter.
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Date: 2011-12-02 08:38 pm (UTC)A little frustrated? Yeah...But its a natural reaction any time someone is passionate about something. And passion is good!
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Date: 2011-12-02 08:40 pm (UTC)These forums on the internet are for sharing opinions otherwise I figure you would lock comments. =)
Exactly right! My LJ is for people to have conversations in, so it's all good! So long as no one attacks/insults each other, I'm happy to have people talking (to each other or to me!).
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Date: 2011-12-02 05:43 am (UTC)That is their right. And it is my right to disagree with them, and share my disagreement with others. It is also my right to give my money to another organization that doesn't promote discrimination.
I think that you are letting a personal belief take away from what they do.
What's wrong with that? It is my belief that one should not discriminate against others based on things like sexual preference. Therefore, I do not wish to give my money/support to a group that promotes discrimination, no matter what else they do, especially when there are other organizations to which I would much rather donate. (For me, it's Planned Parenthood.)
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Date: 2011-12-02 07:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-12-02 08:48 am (UTC)It is as simple as people wishing to support the causes that they can believe in themselves. Salvation army is not one of those for me. As someone else already said earlier, and I said in my first paragraph, the money goes to another charity.
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Date: 2011-12-02 08:36 pm (UTC)Because to be honest, that is the impression I'm getting from your arguments supporting SA: that because they supposedly do good, their homophobic policies should be overlooked, swept under the rug. Politely ignored.
No thanks. There are enough people out there who'd donate to them BECAUSE of this discrimination, and other worthier (imo) causes that don't promote discrimination, that do just as much good in their way, and that could use the help a LOT more.
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Date: 2011-12-02 08:50 pm (UTC)And yes some people donate only because of that but the majority of people never even read that stuff because, to be honest, we as a people don't read things...Or if we do, we don't read the whole thing. They actually speak against harassment and harmful acts against gay people though, its not meant to be offensive and you can tell they took effort not to be. So even if other people do that, they can't know that or control it. Shame on the assholes who would do that, not the clergy-like group who gathers and gives charity without any sort of discrimination. Chastity is a spiritual practice all over the world. Its something many groups speak against and its basically the picture they try to paint here. Chaste and devout people who seek to ultimately focus on their purpose rather than their physical and emotional needs. Its not really that out of the ordinary for a group like that to ask that of any person who enters. If they were say, a pagan-based group and said that, I would be a bit upset. Because its not part of their spiritual belief and their life choices based off of that. But theirs is and they actively preach against treating someone badly for being gay.
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Date: 2011-12-02 05:40 am (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2011-12-02 06:00 am (UTC)I hate the sound of the ringers. In it I can hear the religious hatred for people like me, loud and unashamed, and able to advertise itself proudly on the streets of America as a moral and principled stance. And sometimes I wonder what percentage of the passersby would agree, that their hatred has a greater right to be out there on the streets than my mousy, timid, gay self does.
I'm sure that's unfair of me, that few of the people on the ground actually share the hatred of the homophobic leaders, but... I'm sorry, but I don't want to throw myself under the bus. I guess I'm just a terrible, selfish person. :\
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Date: 2011-12-02 06:15 am (UTC)That kills me so much. These people act as though they're in the right, that THEY are the good, kind, moral ones. Sorry, no, that's "hatred" they're spouting, nothing else.
And sometimes I wonder what percentage of the passersby would agree, that their hatred has a greater right to be out there on the streets than my mousy, timid, gay self does.
Way too many. But I'm so thankful that this is changing. As the older generation ages out and younger people grow up, that kind of thing becomes less and less accepted.
that few of the people on the ground actually share the hatred of the homophobic leaders
I'm sure a lot of them don't even know. Heck, *I* didn't know. I used to throw change into their pot. (Then one day the name made me go hmmmm.)
. I guess I'm just a terrible, selfish person.
Never ever ever. You're the opposite. <3
I could (and have) ranted on this topic endlessly. One day this fight will be won, I just hope it's within my lifetime so I get to see it.
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Date: 2011-12-02 06:20 am (UTC)In sum, you're not the only one not wanting to throw themselves under the bus. We already have too many people gladly leading us into the street.
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