Redeeming Draco
Oct. 1st, 2003 09:58 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
thistlechaserHaving read two Draco/Harry stories this week, I've been thinking a lot about him. I love Snape/Harry stories, so you'd think that Draco/Harry would work for me as well, but that's not the case at all.
Unfortunately, as often happens with JKR's handling of the characters, canon Draco is very flat. He's just a bully (and a pretty poor one at that). If I may be crass for a moment, canon Draco seems to be seriously lacking in balls. He's not evil by choice (if he can be called 'evil' at all), he hasn't made the decision to be bad, he's just being a "good" little boy and following in the family's footsteps.
Boooring.
For me, "redeeming" Draco isn't a possibility because he's not all that bad to begin with. He's on the path to becoming a DE because he lacks a backbone. If he killed his father (or some other DE) to get higher rank within the group, then I'd buy that he was doing it actively and on his own, but I seriously doubt that'll ever happen.
Snape, on the other hand, must have truly been bad in his younger days. As a DE, he must have killed people, and with his position it makes sense that he likely made potions so that others could kill and torture as well. Even after he became a spy for Dumbledore, even after he became one of the "good guys", he had a lot to make up for. I love fics that set his feet on the road to redemption. (Though I also like stories where he's working for LV as a double-agent, stories where he doesn't *want* to be redeemed, and others.)
While Draco is a pretty boy, that's not enough to make me jump on a Draco/* ship.
Unfortunately, as often happens with JKR's handling of the characters, canon Draco is very flat. He's just a bully (and a pretty poor one at that). If I may be crass for a moment, canon Draco seems to be seriously lacking in balls. He's not evil by choice (if he can be called 'evil' at all), he hasn't made the decision to be bad, he's just being a "good" little boy and following in the family's footsteps.
Boooring.
For me, "redeeming" Draco isn't a possibility because he's not all that bad to begin with. He's on the path to becoming a DE because he lacks a backbone. If he killed his father (or some other DE) to get higher rank within the group, then I'd buy that he was doing it actively and on his own, but I seriously doubt that'll ever happen.
Snape, on the other hand, must have truly been bad in his younger days. As a DE, he must have killed people, and with his position it makes sense that he likely made potions so that others could kill and torture as well. Even after he became a spy for Dumbledore, even after he became one of the "good guys", he had a lot to make up for. I love fics that set his feet on the road to redemption. (Though I also like stories where he's working for LV as a double-agent, stories where he doesn't *want* to be redeemed, and others.)
While Draco is a pretty boy, that's not enough to make me jump on a Draco/* ship.
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Date: 2003-10-01 10:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-01 01:20 pm (UTC)Well, I hope she does something with him, and that he's not just never mentioned again...
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Date: 2003-10-01 01:54 pm (UTC)nah, I think she needs someone from the younger generation of Death Eaters either to join the DE or to stand up against them, so I guess she'll let us know what's going to happen to him (well, I hope anyway).
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Date: 2003-10-01 01:57 pm (UTC)nah, I think she needs someone from the younger generation of Death Eaters either to join the DE or to stand up against them, so I guess she'll let us know what's going to happen to him (well, I hope anyway).
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Date: 2003-10-01 10:57 am (UTC)i don't see redeeming draco, just because ... i don't think he cares enough to be redeemed. his right and wrong are exclusively: What does FATHER say?
what fascinates me about him is: he contradicts his own character so often in the books. how he bounces so often from immaturity to adult-like wit.
if he's not a TOTAL plot device, he's a pretty interesting little guy.
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Date: 2003-10-01 01:28 pm (UTC)I think he'd be a really amusing bottom, so long as someone could keep him from whining the whole time!
What does FATHER say?
Yeah. Exactly.
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Date: 2003-10-01 11:39 am (UTC)Interesting! What makes you think so? I'm just curious...
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Date: 2003-10-01 01:16 pm (UTC)Even if he got drawn into the DEs without really knowing what they were like (which is an idea I like, but that I don't believe), he couldn't have been in the group long before seeing what they do. Kill and torture muggles. Likely rape them. Test potions, spells, curses, whatever on them. Even if it would take risking or forfeiting his own life, if he was anything but a bad person, he would have gotten himself out.
You know, in typing this up, I wonder if I'm being too simplistic about it... but I don't think so. If you're a part of something bad, even if you don't kill people yourself, if you just stand back and let it happen, then you're a pretty darned bad person. Weak? Sure, possibly, but that doesn't mean not bad.
(And I'm not really happy with the label "bad person", but it's an easy one to use. Immoral, unethical, inhuman... evil? I guess those would all fit as well.)
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Date: 2003-10-03 06:43 am (UTC)No, me neither. But there's really no indication in canon of what he did as a Death Eater, is there? Or even that he's really a potions expert of any kind? Sure he's a teacher, but you don't have to be an expert in a given subject to teach teenagers (just look at my high school chemistry teacher).
If you're a part of something bad, even if you don't kill people yourself, if you just stand back and let it happen, then you're a pretty darned bad person.
I agree with this entirely. Whether or not he participated directly in anything the Death Eaters did, he's just as guilty of them. :(
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Date: 2003-10-03 01:03 pm (UTC)That's really interesting. I never thought about it. I wonder if "Potions Master" is some real, official title, or if it's one he just gave himself or something? That'd be a real interestng twist, if he wasn't really an expert on potion making...
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Date: 2003-10-03 01:23 pm (UTC)Then again, I'm not British, so what do I know? *g*
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Date: 2003-10-03 02:33 pm (UTC)Then again, I'm not British, so what do I know? *g*
Probably the right answer? ;)
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Date: 2003-10-03 02:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-04 12:17 pm (UTC)The "master" discussion used to come up quite a lot in TPM fandom, which I think is where I got my current definition of the word. It's generally assumed to be canon that a Jedi master is a Jedi who has taught a padawan learner through to becoming a Jedi knight. It's a teaching position, not an expression of expertise in any particular field.
And just out of curiosity I looked in the dictionary and found this definition:
A male teacher, schoolmaster, or tutor.
IMO, that's the definition JKR was using. Not that I couldn't be convinced of another definition in a fic...
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Date: 2003-10-04 02:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-02 07:07 am (UTC)Usually he just dices his students emotionally, as that's all that is allowed him; he is supposed to protect them physically, and so he does, both passively (refraining from assaulting them) and actively (chasing after the students and handing out detentions for rulebreaking).
When he *is* given an excuse to be physically violent, he tends to be brutal about taking his opponent down. The Duelling Club exhibition against Lockhart is CoS is a laughable contest, but Snape wastes no time with a fast, overpowering attack. In PoA, he's distracted by the logistics of getting the Trio away from Black and Lupin, but he was visciously efficient about dealing with the adults.
Since this is his behavior when he is 'good', his behavior when he was 'evil' must have been appalling. Not only is he violent, but he would have had little or no restraints under Voldemort's malovelence.
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Date: 2003-10-02 09:03 am (UTC)You know, I'd love to see some of him during that time. I'd love to see how evil he really could be. It'd make for exciting reading, if perhaps somewhat icky.
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Date: 2003-10-03 06:58 am (UTC)You see, Snape strikes me as the classic underdog-turned-bully, who strikes out at people now because he can. He was at the bottom of the food chain when he was in school, picked on and bullied and completely helpless to do anything about it, and now that he's the one with the power (over the students) he doesn't hesitate to attack them in the same way he was attacked in his younger days. Which means being abusive in a variety of ways, and showing off that newfound power whenever he gets the opportunity (i.e., blasting Lockhart in the Duelling Club).
Which doesn't make him a nice person, of course. Quite the contrary. But I question that it implies he was dangerous as a young man. Maybe he tried to avoid trouble, but the Marauders wouldn't let him. It was only later that he decided to fight violence with violence, and when he was offered the chance to get back at some of the people who'd tormented him by joining the Death Eaters, he leapt at it.
Of course this is all conjecture, and the canon we're given can be interepreted a number of different ways. But it's still fun to discuss the different possibilities. :)
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Date: 2003-10-03 08:47 am (UTC)As far as I can tell, he's only physically violent when he's given a viable excuse. The only time he's actually touched a student in anger is when Harry invades the Penseive.
But I question that it implies he was dangerous as a young man.
I think we have a different conception of 'young man' here. You're including his school days, when he was being bullied and ganged up on.
I was thinking of 'young man' as after he finished school and joined up with the DEs -- at which time he was probably extremely angry, allowed to run wild, and had a head full of Dark Arts. If he wasn't appallingly dangerous at that point in time, then Voldemort must have been spiking Snape's tea with cannabis.
Even in the brief glimpse we have from the Penseive, Snape as a teen does not concede defeat, but keeps crawling towards his weapon, even though he's hexed, choking, and outnumbered. He's stubborn as a terrier in that fight, and when he does get off a spell, it's one that cuts open James Potter's face.
Somehow I doubt the Marauders ever attacked him one on one. Remus isn't the type, Peter Pettigrew was revealed to be too much a syphocant, and for all their faults, neither James nor Sirius seem that *particular* brand of stupid.
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Date: 2003-10-04 12:04 pm (UTC)Yes, but there are other kinds of abuse than just physical. He's extremely verbally and emotionally abusive to his students. No real clue where he learned that behavior from, though, from what we saw of his home life in the Pensieve.
I was thinking of "young man" as referring to his pre-Death Eater days, so I guess we were talking about two different things. I agree that he was likely very dangerous when he joined up with the Death Eaters, since it was probably his first taste of having any kind of real power over other individuals. Kind of like when a kid joins up with a neighborhood gang and suddenly realizes that no one dares stand up to him anymore. That kind of power can be addictive.
Even in the brief glimpse we have from the Penseive, Snape as a teen does not concede defeat, but keeps crawling towards his weapon, even though he's hexed, choking, and outnumbered.
That's a very good point. And I agree that none of the Marauders would have ever dared face him alone. Then again, a lot of teenagers feel braver and more mean-spirited when their friends are around. :(
Well...
Date: 2003-10-01 12:39 pm (UTC)And since you whined about my last comment, I'll keep this one short. ;)
I don't know much about Draco, but have you ever thought that maybe the reason he's interesting is, indeed, because he isn't truly bad? It's very well possible that what gives him a little depth is the fact that he really isn't cruel to the core, but, rather, has to live up to some kind of "evil" image that his father has pressed upon him. Perhaps a little more light-shedding will occur in some future books? Perhaps he'll strip away this whole "evil" visage? Or perhaps he'll be confronted with it but still remain in denial, instead "intensifying" his meanness to lie to himself?
Having said that, I've only read the first book, and have read no fics at all, so I know very little about canon Draco. I just feel like making a reply in your post because I know otherwise you'll be sad and bored. So this post exists for the sole purpose of entertaining you for two minutes! Aren't you so glad I'm me?
Re: Well...
Date: 2003-10-01 01:03 pm (UTC)Oh, I didn't mean to imply that the character was interesting. He's nice to look at, but I find him to be really dull other than that.
It's very well possible that what gives him a little depth is the fact that he really isn't cruel to the core...
Responding to that whole paragraph: I think the problem is that he lacks any depth. He's just... flat. If he had any good in him, he'd stand up to or cut ties with his family and be a good guy (cause his family is really, really deeply into the bad stuff, so anyone with any bit of goodness in them shouldn't be willing to go along with it), but if he had any real badness/evilness in him, he'd... well, be more than a toothless little bully.
It's not that I don't like characters without spines (hey, I love Peter), but Draco is just so "eh" in so many ways...
just feel like making a reply in your post because I know otherwise you'll be sad and bored. So this post exists for the sole purpose of entertaining you for two minutes! Aren't you so glad I'm me?
Where do I know you from again? I don't recognize your name at all.
Re: Well...
Date: 2003-10-01 01:28 pm (UTC)Dude, can you ever go a day without belittling me? You weren't even kind enough to include a ;) this time!
Since your reply did seem awfully un-reply-to-Hyperlike, maybe I'll assume that my name and icon didn't show up and say hey, it's me, Hyper/Peppy/Zac!
And if you *were* kidding, then dude, you *really* suck!
Oh, I didn't mean to imply that the character was interesting. He's nice to look at, but I find him to be really dull other than that.
I wasn't meaning to imply that you thought of him as interesting in that sense; rather, I was implying that that's why others (possibly including Rowling?) find him to be more interesting than you think. And about cutting ties, mm, I think you might not understand because, really, I don't think you act in your mom's best interest. I mean, I know you don't want to make yourself out to be *bad*, but I think you tend to do things more for yourself than to "impress your parents", as Draco seems to be determined to do. In that way, maybe you can't understand that drive.
Or maybe Draco is a shallow little turd and I'm speaking out of my butt, which is a very likely situation since you know, I don't know anything about the guy except he has blonde hair.
... Yeah.
Twenty bucks says this reply won't go through!
(Edited to add: And lo, behold, it didn't. Thank goodness for copy and paste. ;) )
Re: Well...
Date: 2003-10-01 02:08 pm (UTC)You know, I don't know! Maybe I should try it sometime, huh? ...nah!
I mean, I know you don't want to make yourself out to be *bad*, but I think you tend to do things more for yourself than to "impress your parents", as Draco seems to be determined to do. In that way, maybe you can't understand that drive.
Well, yeah... Shouldn't that be how it is, especially if your parents are evil and murderers? I mean, impressing your parents is a nice thing to do, but you should be *you* first, and if you impress them as a side-effect, that's peachy keen!
Re: Well...
Date: 2003-10-01 02:19 pm (UTC)And if you put others before yourself, you're locked in a very Peter Keating-type shallow state of mind! The fact that Draco does that may very well make him a character who is *deep* in the fact that he's so shallow, since his shallowness overrides how he *should* be disgusted by what his family does! Wow, now I should read the books just so I can see if what I'm saying is true!
And dude, I guess there are days when you don't insult me, like days when I'm on vacation or days when... ... uh... ... ... ... ...
I really dislike you! Grrr!
Re: Well...
Date: 2003-10-01 02:29 pm (UTC)Does this mean the wedding is off, baby?
And yes, you should read the books! Then we could have, like, intelligent conversations about it, dude! Dude!
Re: Well...
Date: 2003-10-01 06:37 pm (UTC)"So, Hyper, who do you think Snape should have sex with next, Professor Dumbledore, or Dobby? Hmmm!"
;)
Re: Well...
Date: 2003-10-01 08:12 pm (UTC)Re: Well...
Date: 2003-10-01 02:09 pm (UTC)You know, I don't know! Maybe I should try it sometime, huh? ...nah!
I mean, I know you don't want to make yourself out to be *bad*, but I think you tend to do things more for yourself than to "impress your parents", as Draco seems to be determined to do. In that way, maybe you can't understand that drive.
Well, yeah... Shouldn't that be how it is, especially if your parents are evil and murderers? I mean, impressing your parents is a nice thing to do, but you should be *you* first, and if you impress them as a side-effect, that's peachy keen!
Rrrrrgh!
Date: 2003-10-01 12:45 pm (UTC)And now when I try to delete them, I'm getting an er... oh, wait! Now I'm getting errors trying to check my friend's page!
God, I hate LJ!!
I'll keep trying, though, to delete all but the one!
(I just hope this one doesn't show seven hundred times, too!)
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Date: 2003-10-01 02:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-01 03:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-01 04:22 pm (UTC)He's on the path to becoming a DE because he lacks a backbone
You're making an unfair implication here that he does not want to become a DE, which is purely a fanon assumption. I'd say he's pretty damn eager to join up, and not primarily because his father says so, but because he wants the power. JKR takes pains to show this at the end of OotP, when he's anxious to see Hermione's "weapon". Just reread that whole scene, and his motives become fairly clear.
As for lacking in balls, yes and no. He's a wimp when it comes to risking his safety in any way; he's all about the self-preservation. However, he does have the gal to draw his wand against Harry, and to publicly humiliate him and others as much as he dares. And he's good at being a bully. JKR explained it really well in an interview (which I happen to have, how sad am I?)
JKR: “He is the bully of the most refined type in that unlike Dudley, Harry’s cousin who is a physical bully, but really not bright enough to access all of your weak points. Draco is, um, he’s a snob. He’s a bigot and he’s a bully, and as I say, in the most refined sense, he knows exactly what will hurt people…”
Comparing him with Snape is perhaps unfair in a sense, because Snape is an adult. Where was he when he was Draco's age? Hanging upside down with his dirty undies showing, that's where. Draco, at least, has the forethought to find two bulky bodyguards. Also, he's got a support system of friends from his house, which Snape (at 16) did not seem to have. Draco bullies people; Snape was the one being bullied.
Draco idiolizes his father, but is not afraid of him. At least not in the sense that he acts the way he does because he fears going against Lucius. He doesn't WANT to go against Lucius. If canon is any indication, it seems to be the other way around, with Lucius actively keeping Draco away from DE activity (ie: he's never seen death, he knows only superficial inside information, etc). This is partly why I want to write about him, because in spite of all his big talk and "evil" aspirations, he doesn't seem to have any clear idea of what being a DE really means. He's sort of naive that way. I think he'd make an awful DE, and I just love reading and writing about the moment he realises this.
</ end rant>
I'm sorry. I get touchy about Draco. Also, I must apologise to Snape and his grey undies because, really, I love him too :D
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Date: 2003-10-01 08:49 pm (UTC)JKR takes pains to show this at the end of OotP, when he's anxious to see Hermione's "weapon".
Right. I read it as he wanted the weapon for the credit of turning it in to daddy (or LV, but more likely to his father).
As for lacking in balls, yes and no. He's a wimp when it comes to risking his safety in any way; he's all about the self-preservation. However, he does have the gal to draw his wand against Harry
See, I see that as a contradiction. I wouldn't call it gall to pull a wand on Harry, I'd call it stupid. Harry is the darling of the wizarding world, what if Draco was able to hurt him? In the middle of Hogwarts? It'd be a nice long prison sentence for him, most likely...
I wouldn't disagree with the JKR quote. He is a "verbal bully" more than physical, but I believe that's because he couldn't be a physical one if he wanted to. If he was big enough and strong enough to be one, I believe he'd now be pushing all the first years down and taking their lunch money.
Comparing him with Snape is perhaps unfair in a sense, because Snape is an adult.
True, I'll give you that. (And the comparison of where Snape was in his teens made me giggle!) *However*, though Snape was picked on and Draco is the one doing the picking (eh, bullying), I still see Snape as the stronger person. Snape stood (hung...) on his own through all of that; he didn't have two goons backing him up, and he didn't have dear old daddy behind him. He made it through and survived on his own.
Draco idiolizes his father ... and I just love reading and writing about the moment he realises this.
On that whole paragraph... In my opinion, if Draco doesn't know what the DEs and his father do, then he must be even more stupid than I already take him for. (No offense here, this is just my opinion on the situation.) Kids know what goes on with their parents, even when their parents take great pains to hide it. Kids can figure out that a divorce is coming, that their parents had a fight, that one of them lost a job... something major and massive like killing for fun would be so so so hard to hide, especially assuming that friends of their family who were also DEs would likely come over and talk about that sort of thing, the "good old days" and the coming days and all that.
I think he'd make an awful DE
I agree and don't agree with this. I don't think he'd ever, ever make a good leader (second-in-command, whatever) of the DEs, but I think he'd make a fine foot soldier. I think he'd follow orders well, and could easily be bullied into doing this or that.
These are just my opinions! It's understandable that we might not agree. :)
I have a fun time speculating
Date: 2003-10-02 12:32 pm (UTC)OTOH... (sheer speculation ahead)
In OotP, we see that Sirus came from a family of Dark, DE sympathizing wizards. Nevertheless, Sirius overcame childhood conditioning enough to be on the side of the right (though not enough so not to have been a bullying, immature bastard). Frankly, nothing that I've seen Draco do to date (including having the bad taste to side with Umbridge) quite measures up to the Marauders' torture of Snape. And I adored the "Weasley is our king" song that Draco came up with. Funny, clever, and non-magical.
I kind of hope that Draco doesn't go (completely) bad. I'd like to see JKR display more subtlety than having a character whose physical description would fit in wonderfully on a Nazi recruiting poster actually be the Nazi equivalent (a DE) in the books. Also, as much as I like that JKR has (somewhat) taken on the classism of the British social system, I'd really rather not have "poor/lower- or middleclass" equal good and "upper class" equal utter rotten bastards. And from the up-ending of some stereotypes she was seemingly perpetuating prior to OotP, I hold out hope that she's going to upend reader expecations on this one, too.
Lastly, I have a weird theory about Draco's hair obsession and the fact that, more than half the time, the object of Draco's ire seems to be Ron rather than Harry. Draco, I (want to) believe, has the (unwillling) hots for Hermione, and like James before him, is both vain about his hair, and taking the worst possible route to impressing the woman he cares for (lusts after?).
When it comes to fanfic though, Harry/Draco, or indeed Draco/anyone, I'm willing to go along for the ride, so long as the author is sufficiently convincing. OTOH, I'm not emotionally committed to the idea of a redeemed Draco (in fanfic, or in canon for that matter) so I'm equally happy to read stories in which Draco plays the villain.
In fact, the only stories that seem to turn me off these days are stories in which Hermione or Neville are portrayed as weak/shrewish/evil/etc.
Re: I have a fun time speculating
Date: 2003-10-02 02:39 pm (UTC)I'd like to see JKR display more subtlety than having a character whose physical description would fit in wonderfully on a Nazi recruiting poster actually be the Nazi equivalent
I was thinking about that as well while making this post, but subtlety isn't her game as much as I'd like it to be. There's so much I hope she'll do (and not do), but I pretty much figure I'll be disappointed by her.
In OotP, we see that Sirus came from a family of Dark...
I'm wondering more and more about Sirus, especially why he was sorted into Gryffindor. Being a bully *is not brave*. Attacking one boy while backed by a pack of your own friends *isn't brave*. He is not a good person. He does not think of others first. He really is a bad person. So why is he in Gryffindor? (Well, other than there really being only two houses in JKR's canon world...)
Lastly, I have a weird theory about Draco's hair obsession and the fact that, more than half the time, the object of Draco's ire seems to be Ron rather than Harry. Draco, I (want to) believe, has the (unwillling) hots for Hermione, and like James before him, is both vain about his hair, and taking the worst possible route to impressing the woman he cares for (lusts after?).
That's an intertesting thought, and especially since she isn't a pure blood. I wish I had time to read the books again, and look for signs of that and other things.
In fact, the only stories that seem to turn me off these days are stories in which Hermione or Neville are portrayed as weak/shrewish/evil/etc.
Agreed.
Thanks for the comments!