World-shaking changes (FFXI, RP, RL?)

[thistlechaser]

The oddest thing has happened, and I can only be glad it was an IC event and not RL.

For more than two years now, I've believed "Immortals are evil" as confidently as I believed in gravity, that we need air to stay alive, etc. A basic foundation-truth of the world. It's been RPed by me for at least that long, and I believed it OOCly as well as ICly.

In doing BLU AF quests, I've learned that I was wrong. In my head I now know that Immortals are not evil, but I have no idea how to change how I feel. I mean, I don't feel like I should change how I feel. (Imagine trying to suddenly feel like something will fall up when you drop it. How do you merge that into your knowledge of how the world works?) It's the oddest thing, feeling like basic reality has changed.

Worst part of this is, I still have to RP Thistle as feeling like they're literally evil -- evil formed into human shape, nothing more than that. (Me leveling BLU/doing the quests is not IC for MUX Thistle or for FFXI Thistle.)

I can't imagine how someone deals with this RL. If they hate blacks/gays/whatever and then finally learn that they're just people living their lives, too. It's very very odd, but it's kind of cool, too. I had no idea this sort of feeling even existed! It's almost physical, I can feel it in my stomach.

---

FFXI update: Such busy, busy days. Yesterday I got BLU to 50, and so had to make my way to the Navukgo Execution Chamber to do my AF feed BC. Yay for Cy, she gave me good directions on getting there! The fight was easy as pie. Trip: Not fun, but I made it.

Today I got @1K to 52. (Besieged is about to hit, will give me my last 1K unless I crash.) Yay being able to wear the AF feet I just got! (Edit: Yay boots! Got 52!)

Damask: Got his glasses, yay! I really, really, really need to get back to skilling on him. I have 125 unstackable items waiting for him to skill (level 88), and he's 73 now. :/ Problem is the lack of spider webs. He needs hundreds of them, but I can't even catch one at the AH (I strongly suspect AH bots grabbing them). I suppose I should try farming for them, but... no time. I have no idea how I'm going to get around this.

I have all my BLU spells up to 50, but need to go hunting for the 52/54 ones.

Best of all: I almost capped my blue magic skill! (That's important, learning spells is based on that.) Edit: Capped in Besieged, yay!

Fields of Valor in Xarc suck ass. "Hello, little one. You want the easiest one? Okay! Please go kill 9 bones and 3 ghosts. Oh, and hey, do it in the middle of a ton of undead! Mind you, these can't be TW mobs! Don't let your HP fall into the yellow, teehee!" I came so close to dying many, many times in my one single training page there. Never going back again.

Last night was ZNM night, but we only got one of the two done. Chamrosh. We ran out of time for V-whoever (bones), so will do that next week. Everyone got the capes/earrings they wanted though, so yay.

Tomorrow is an off night, so I'll probably do more BLU. Wish I was 75 so I could take a break. zzz Make Damask 100 while I'm wishing for things? zzzz Hell, I guess a better wish would be that I would stop getting so fixated on things.

Hopefully Saturday will get some RP. I'll have a scene with xvolph if I can get onto the MUX early enough. That should be highly amusing, since Thistle thinks her character is an Immortal~ XD

(Edit: WARNING! There are ToAU mission spoilers in the comments! Early-ish missions, but if you've done none of them and don't want to be spoiled, take care.)

Comments

[almontffxi.livejournal.com]

While I personally don't like the Immortals, I'd consider them to be more "neutral" than evil. To a lot of people, that would certainly still be perceived as evil, however.

They take whatever actions they feel necessary to "serve the empire," and just do what they are assigned to do. I didn't get the feeling from the ToAU mission cutscenes that the Immortals put really any effort into twisting things for their own benefit. That may be different in the scenes associated with unlocking BLU, or with their AF quests. I don't know, because I don't have it unlocked.

[voidmagus.livejournal.com]

American History X: Thistle vs BLU

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

WI think that if I had done BLU before COR, I'd have more of a neutral feel about them.

They take whatever actions they feel necessary to "serve the empire," and just do what they are assigned to do.

I suspect I have an element of the missions mixed up in my head, too. Who was it who let the Lamiae and Merrows loose in the Reef? I know the empress's brother was (involved? responsible?) and he has beastman blood in him so he's an Immortal(?), but was he acting as an Immortal or on behalf of the Empire? And they had done that to hunt down the Corsairs, right?

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Ha ha. :D

[almontffxi.livejournal.com]

Who was it who let the Lamiae and Merrows loose in the Reef? I know the empress's brother was (involved? responsible?)

If I'm thinking of the same mission CS, I think it was the empress's brother who gave the order. Whether he is 'responsible' or simply 'involved' depends on how you look at it, I guess.

he has beastman blood in him so he's an Immortal(?), but was he acting as an Immortal or on behalf of the Empire?

This is just semantics. Acting 'as an Immortal' *is* acting 'on behalf of the Empire.'

The Empress' brother showed very clearly throughout the mission cutscenes that he was willing to follow an Ends Justify the Means policy when it came to achieving what he believed was "best for the empire."

I don't remember specifically thinking that the Grand Vizier (I think that was his title?) had 'created' or trained the Immortals himself, but in a lot of cases they did act as an extension of his will. So perhaps it makes sense they would carry out the orders given them by whatever means necessary.

And they had done that to hunt down the Corsairs, right?

Iirc...I think the Lamiae & Merrows had been released simply to take the Empress back by force? The fact that she was with Luzaf at the time may or may not have influenced the method her brother chose to get her back.

[veloxe.livejournal.com]

You'll change your mind about the level of evil that Immortals are when you are trying to learn the higher level Blue Magic, mark my words.

[xvolph.livejournal.com]

Over all, no, the Immortals were not created by the Grand Vizier, but some may be trained by him. If not, they're trained by more senior members of the Immortal Lions. They do act very much as an extension of his will, a sort of personal Black Ops, although he oversees the entire Imperial military. Even the Serpent Generals answer to him. The only real exception is the Sentinels, and Nashmeira has personal stake in their funding and operations.

The creation of the Immortals goes back at least a couple of centuries. When the surviving Corsairs were eradicated just prior to Luzaf making his deal, the Lamiae were the ones who destroyed them, under the command of the Imperial Army. Luzaf describes what happens in one of the cutscenes. But the Lamiae and Merrows were, originally, early experiments which led to the successful creation of the Immortals by combining and grafting monster bits onto other bodies. They were meant to be little more than puppets or slave soldiers, but over time, some of them broke free of the Empire's control.

Are you familiar with the Guilty Gear game series at all? There are a few parallels between the Lamiae and the Gears. The biggest parallel is their purpose, and their control, or lack thereof. In Guilty Gear, Justice was created to be a control unit for the other Gears who had no sentient will. Justice developed sentience and took control of its lesser relatives, turned against the humans and waged war.

By the same token, we have Medusa who is leaps and bounds more powerful than any of her sisters. She is very much the Matriarch of the Lamiae and Merrows, both, which makes it easy to assume she was intended to be a control unit at one point. She still leads them, but through a very real level of sentience and ambition. By extension, many of her lesser brood have also gained some level of self-awareness. Many of them broke away from the control of the Empire and escaped, probably carving a bloody path on the way out.

The ones we see in the mission cutscenes are still within the Empire's control, and probably have no self-awareness.

Back to the Immortals, though, it's easy to see how they could be perceived as evil. As their powers grow, their personal control wanes, and the odds of the Beast taking over become greater. Amnaf is a good example. Raubahn is another one. He says things which aren't exactly characteristic of a "good guy", or a neutral party.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Are you familiar with the Guilty Gear game series at all?

Nope. I keep running into issues with FFXI lore because I have so very little experience with other games. FFX is just about the only other video game I've played, other than a few in the Pokemon series.

Back to the Immortals, though, it's easy to see how they could be perceived as evil. As their powers grow, their personal control wanes, and the odds of the Beast taking over become greater.

I think it could be more than that... Look at how the BLU job is opened. You wake up on the floor of some lab, the alchemists having done 'something' to you.

Just becoming an Immortal/BLU, having monster bits put into your body, seems sort of evil off the bat.

I think a lot of my issue with '(Immortals) are evil' comes from some kind of mental mix-up a couple of years ago. Ever since ToAU came out, Nai has been prodding me both ICly and OOCly that it's the empire that the Corsairs are fighting against, not only the Immortals. Thistle and thus I (or me and thus Thistle?) somehow got fixated on the Immortals and blamed them for everything. The BLU job opening issue is probably the doing of the Empire and not the Immortals? Who do the alchmists answer to?

Over all, no, the Immortals were not created by the Grand Vizier, but some may be trained by him. If not, they're trained by more senior members of the Immortal Lions. They do act very much as an extension of his will, a sort of personal Black Ops, although he oversees the entire Imperial military. Even the Serpent Generals answer to him.

I'd really, really love to know more about how the Empire works. That last general mission really surprised me when the Serpent Generals were answering to an Immortal. I kind of thought the generals would be equal, if not higher, in rank...

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Ha ha ha I know. I'm dreading the higher level spells, there are going to be fewer and fewer I can solo...

[almontffxi.livejournal.com]

@ xvolph, I've never played Guilty Gear either, but your metaphor with Medusa makes a lot of sense.

The BLU job opening issue is probably the doing of the Empire and not the Immortals? Who do the alchmists answer to?

The Alchemists definitely answer to the Empire. Both the Imperial Alchemists and the Immortals are like different specialist arms of the same overall military body. There probably is a hierarchy in place among the various military 'divisions' though. I can see how the Serpent Generals could be bound by conducting communication between themselves and the Grand Vizier through the Immortals though: As xvolph pointed out, the Immortals are basically the behind-the-scenes, Black Ops part of the Imperial military, while the Serpent Generals serve as the Public Face of the same military. It's just like the difference between the Empress and the Grand Vizier.

By the way:
Thistle and thus I (or me and thus Thistle?) somehow got fixated on the Immortals and blamed them for everything.

I find it very neat that it seems you do things to shape your character's personality a bit. From comments like this, it doesn't seem like you treat Thistle as simply yourself, typing text into the game. Thistle sounds like an extension of yourself of course, but with differences that make him his own personality. That's cool.

[citizenbleys.livejournal.com]

It makes sense for it to be the Grand Vizier. Grand Viziers are required by law to be evil. Read anything with a Grand Vizier in it, and he turns out evil. Never fails.

[citizenbleys.livejournal.com]

That's Terry Pratchett's joke, btw, not mine.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

The Alchemists definitely answer to the Empire

That whole parapraph makes sense. xvolph comparing them to Black Ops makes all the pieces fall into place better.

I find it very neat that it seems you do things to shape your character's personality a bit. From comments like this, it doesn't seem like you treat Thistle as simply yourself, typing text into the game. Thistle sounds like an extension of yourself of course, but with differences that make him his own personality. That's cool.

Thank you! He is his own character. I role-play him in two different ways (at least on FFXI) -- as the "character" Thistle and the "real" Thistle. Very few people on FFXI know anything about the real RL me, instead I have that fake RL me that I display to everyone. (Kind of like a manthra pretending to be female RL, only with less harm!)

The character/IC Thistle is just that, a character. I play him both on a MUX (an online, text-based RPG) and on FFXI (though there's sadly little RP there). He does have elements of me, perhaps too many of them, but he's his own person as well. This will sound crazy, but it's like I have a second personality in my head, I hear his voice and stuff. That's not in the insane way though, it's common among RPers; I've been playing as Thistle for so many years now, he just seems real. I don't have to think about what he'd say or how he would react, I can just feel it.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Heehee! :D

[almontffxi.livejournal.com]

This will sound crazy, but it's like I have a second personality in my head, I hear his voice and stuff. That's not in the insane way though, it's common among RPers; I've been playing as Thistle for so many years now, he just seems real. I don't have to think about what he'd say or how he would react, I can just feel it.

Doesn't sound crazy at all. I've been into RPGs of various sorts for many, many years. FFXI is my first (and currently only) MMO experience with it but I feel like, by extension from other games, RP'ing still can play a part in it.

Whether that part is small or large depends on the group involved, but your comment about not having to think about what Thistle would say or how he'd react makes perfect sense.

I sometimes wish there were more RP'ing involved---but not always. The only 'concession' I currently allow myself in FF is that I don't wear headgear in towns. I don't know exactly when it started happening, but at some point I realized I was unequipping whatever headgear I happened to be wearing whenever I zoned into a city zone. When I thought about it a little in context of the character I have in my head, it made sense. Towns are the main place you conduct face-to-face buisness, where you live, etc. It's not the same as being outside adventuring. The no-headgear thing just struck me as a gesture of respect towards that concept and it fit with the character's outlook.

The preceeding comments probably only make sense in my head. ^^

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Huh, wow. I like that headgear in towns idea. That makes sense.

Know what doesn't make sense though? The lack of bathrooms in moghouses (not counting Windy I don't want to know what they do in those fountains...). It's kind of depressing to think our high level "hero" characters are probably sharing a bathroom with everyone else who has a moghouse in that city...