What the living hell is this?

[thistlechaser]

This post on an Asperger comm boggles me. I actually stopped chewing dinner to just sit and peer at the screen. At first I thought I was misunderstanding things. The first line is:

I have just learned that my toddler nephew is on the spectrum! I can't tell you how excited this makes me.

That read like she was happy the nephew had it. That had to be wrong, that couldn't be right. So I kept reading:

Oh, and they have another baby on the way. Yes, my fingers are crossed for another Aspie!

I'm sorry, but what? Am I so behind the times that I'm in a totally different age? This is a disease, yes? Not some kind of lifestyle choice or... or... arg. Someone help my brain! None of the comments on that post are calling the person out on saying that!

Oh my friendsfriends list, what interesting things you always give me to read.

Anyway. In WoW, I tried PvPing for the first time in forever. Years, it's been (or at least feels like). But hey, paladin, high end of the bracket, it'd have to go well, right? Well, yes! I was level 38, and only person to give me any challenge at all (or successfully kill me) was a 38 rogue. Alas I'm not all that good at PvP, but the paladin skillset (and plate mail!) was enough to keep me upright most of the time. He killed me only once. Still, it was actually really enjoyable, even if the XP didn't make it worth doing.

Other stuff happened today, but that Asperger post drove everything else out of my head, grr.

Comments

[hamburger.livejournal.com]

Do not get me started on these people. There's a reason I stopped reading that community.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I'm glad it's not just me being behind the times or missed some big fact of reality or some such. Ugh!

[hamburger.livejournal.com]

I had to go through childhood with Asperger's, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

The person who wrote that post found mine. *cough* *BLUSH!* We're having a conversation below, if you're curious about it (though it sounds like the comm was enough for you).

[fealubryne.livejournal.com]

This. I can understand the whole "my kid is struggling, I'm so glad they've been diagnosed so we can deal with it!" I know how frustrating stuff like that can be. But to actually say fingers crossed that a kid would be born facing challenges like that, supported or diagnosed or whatever, that just... what?

Gods, I'm already worried my kid will end up with ADD or ADHD or something, since I'm almost 100% sure both her dad and I have gone our entire lives undiagnosed and struggling with it. That shit is hard and yeah... if it turns out that way, we'll deal with it, since we get it. But I would never, EVER hope for it. Dear effing lord.

/endrant

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

This. I can understand the whole "my kid is struggling, I'm so glad they've been diagnosed so we can deal with it!"

Yeah, that I could fully understand. But hoping they get it? Not so much.

[estarcollector.livejournal.com]

*ahem* I was sent this way by the pingback bot. I'm sorry to have offended you. Perhaps I should not have been so enthusiastic.

I, personally, don't see Asperger's as a disease; however, I am very high-functioning. I was excited not to be the only official Aspie in the family anymore, and also weirdly glad for him because he has someone (me) who can help him and his parents. They won't be alone going through this.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Oh, well hello! I forgot the pingback bot existed. (Guess that shows how often people link to me, huh?) Thanks for coming and commenting!

I, personally, don't see Asperger's as a disease

If you don't mind me asking, what do you see it as? The scientific/medical community sees it as a disease, why do you think they're wrong? (Since tone is really hard to read through text, I'm not being sarcastic or attempting to be cutting, I'd really like to know. I don't understand your point of view on this.)

and also weirdly glad for him because he has someone (me) who can help him and his parents. They won't be alone going through this.

That part I totally get. :)

[estarcollector.livejournal.com]

I see it more...gah, how do I say this without sounding like an idiot?...more as a difference. We communicate differently than NTs do, although in my experience we tend to do better with our own kind. We do have trouble sometimes understanding that people don't see the world the way we do--but I've noticed neurotypicals do that as well, so maybe it's just a human thing? The sensory issues, for me, are the worst; however, I remind myself that I'm in a world geared for the majority. Makes it easier to cut the tags out of my shirts. ;) I'm not about to demand a redo of thousands of production plants over a simple thing like that. (As for the light/sound problems, I do my best to avoid my triggers. Only way I can cope!)

I would lean more towards calling it a disease because of the lower-functioning end--if I hadn't met so many adults from all parts of the spectrum who are quite happy the way they are.

I think that spectrum people, just like anyone else, need to have our gifts encouraged so we can be our best. Temple Grandin was once considered very low-functioning, but with the right environment she has gone on to achieve great things. I would say that about the most neurotypical person on earth; I think everyone deserves a chance to succeed.

Heck, I didn't even know there was a pingback bot; thanks for teaching me something new today! Also, I keep wanting to pet the kitty in your icon.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Huh, very interesting, thanks!

Temple Grandin was once considered very low-functioning, but with the right environment she has gone on to achieve great things

I saw the HBO(?) movie about her, it was quite amazing.

Also, I keep wanting to pet the kitty in your icon.

It tends to have that effect on people. :D

Sorry if my original post offended at all, I should have let the whole thing settle more instead of posting right away.

[machinegirl.livejournal.com]

I've found that most people that are "OMG I HAVE ASSBURGERS" don't. They're socially awkward and self diagnose themselves on the internet.

I also really fucking hate the term "neurotypical". It's mostly used as a snotty way to say "people outside my clique".

Ugh. I'm so full of rage I can't even figure out what I want to say.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

That's how I was seeing it, 100%. I have dyslexia, diagnosed when I was a kid, I went to years of training for my eyes/brain so I could learn to read. Then suddenly it became the flavor of the month, anyone who couldn't spell claimed to have it. My eyes are still rolling. I see Asperger as the same thing.

[machinegirl.livejournal.com]

It's like that with migraines. People equate a migraine with a bad headache, when it's not that at all. When I get one (and I've only had one since I moved back to Texas), any light at all hurts, any noise at all hurts, moving even the littlest bit makes me want to throw up and all I can do is take my zomig and hope I fall asleep with it kicks in.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Yes! Exactly. (And sorry you get them!)

[priestpluswolf.livejournal.com]

I feel your pain .. not quite literally .. with migraines. I get ocular migraines, several times a month. They're not as bad as some get it, I don't wind up sound or smell sensitive, but anything brighter than the dimmest twilight light becomes torture, and the nausea's always 'fun'. Nobody knows why~ but since I started getting them, suddenly everyone in the family under 40 calls sinus pressure, allergies, and normal headaches 'migraines'.

Until they have to lay in bed in a pitch black soundless room all day for fear moving will cause violent sickness and excruciating pain, they don't get to call it migraines. D:

[socksofjello.livejournal.com]

Whoa, I never would've guessed that. Neat.

And yeah, self-diagnosing has hurt a countless number of folks. It's essentially turned Asperger's into a joke; hell, even I'll admit to describing myself as "spergin'" when I get excited over something inconsequential or childish. I have no idea why so many have latched onto it as an identity. It just makes your life hell as soon as you develop a sense of self-awareness.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

... OH! I've seen "spergin" used before, but I never knew what it meant. Ha, that makes so much sense now.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

Technically, given as it's inborn and not caught, neither Autism nor Asperger's Syndrome are diseases. However, in the general sense I agree with your general point, which is that you don't particularly want to be dealing with having someone on the spectrum in your family.

But I don't consider Asperger's or other forms of high functioning autism to be much of any kind of a spectre, and they can be interesting ways of living in the world.

(Low functioning autistic folks have more issues, obviously, and I know of many who'd get cured if they had a chance.)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Oh, good point on the term 'diseases'. Sloppy choice of wording on my part (both in writing and thought).

(Low functioning autistic folks have more issues, obviously, and I know of many who'd get cured if they had a chance.)

Yeah, I'd think so.

[revengesong.livejournal.com]

'Disease' is much broader than that. Heart disease isn't 'caught'. Disease is defined as an abnormal condition affecting the body, that is all. Autism does in fact have a 'disease process'.

In medical terminology, disease is an incredibly broad and vague term. So you weren't incorrect entirely, though 'disorder' is probably a better word.

I'm not trying to be obnoxious or insulting, really just offering a dictionary standpoint. The word is nothing to be offended by ;)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Oh, good point, too. And no worries, you didn't come off as obnoxious or insulting at all. Thanks for commenting! I hadn't thought about the 'heart disease' end of it.

[avocado-love.livejournal.com]

No you're right to be boggled by that. Yikes. Just... YIKES.

Hopefully if the kid is 3, they can get him into therapy (and away from this woman who sounds like she would only encourage abnormal behavior!) real quick.


Edit: It occurs to me after I post this that perhaps the boggling reaction is possibly because she's on the spectrum and didn't actually mean that, but communicated it wrong and... ugh. My brain hurts.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

She found my post and we've exchanged a few comments. There's some miscommunication and some disagreement. I understood what you meant though!

[ashmedai.livejournal.com]

This is a disease, yes?

No, it's not a disease - lol. However, I agree with your point. Aspergers is something I wouldn't wish on any kid, it made life extremely rough on me. Not so much because of social awkwardness, but because of many other things I'm still learning to figure out and deal with, that's one reason I read that community with varying degrees of interest that range from "Oh okay, that was helpful" to downright gobsmacked, sometimes not in a pleasant way. What I've really disliked there is A) the sense of entitlement and being "special" some people display, and B) this obsessive cult that's made of "symptoms" that tends to go on there. Would I want to change? No, because then I wouldn't be "me", but then I'm not on the lower functioning end of the spectrum, so it's easy for me to say. But again, I wouldn't be happy if a kid I know is diagnosed either, knowing the challenges he's going to face and the things he's going to be missing out on.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Hmm, that makes sense. Thanks!

[ashmedai.livejournal.com]

Of course I couldn't keep my yap shut in the comm, but fortunately there wasn't any drama and a couple people saw it from the same perspective. Still, sometimes I just think..."Oy veh..." :|

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I have that same trouble all the time. See also: My post that started this all. :P

[ashmedai.livejournal.com]

Yeah well, too many people don't pipe up so as to avoid conflict, so I'm always glad when someone calls a spade a spade. (still LMAO at the term "Assburgers" someone used in comments here. Srsly! LOL)

[firebyrd.livejournal.com]

Definitely not a disease, but a disorder that I don't understand why someone would ever be excited that someone had. Obviously people like Temple Grandin have produced amazing work due to the differences in their brain processes, but given how society is and how there tend to be so many sensitivities associated with the autism spectrum...yeah. Not something you should ever, ever want someone else to have, even to feel less alone in one's family.

Should people whose brain functions differently be treated poorly? Of course not. That doesn't mean we should wish such abnormalities to happen to other people.

[blightheart.livejournal.com]

I feel like there's backpedaling going on too, because the writer says that they really meant that they were happy that the child would be born into a sympathetic family, but sorry, "Oh, and they have another baby on the way. Yes, my fingers are crossed for another Aspie!" does not mean that. To me, and I can't figure out what else this could possibly mean the way it's written, it looks like of all the possible outcomes of the pregnancy, this person is HOPING that the child will be born with it. So it's not even just a passive, "Well at least I'm not alone", it's actively hoping that more and more children are born with this. That's pretty messed up.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

To me, and I can't figure out what else this could possibly mean the way it's written, it looks like of all the possible outcomes of the pregnancy, this person is HOPING that the child will be born with it.

That's just how I was reading it, too. Try as I might, I can't read it any other way.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Totally agreed, on your whole comment. As someone said above, if the kid already had it and the people were relieved that they got the diagnosis so they could start dealing with the issue, that would be different.

[bricriu.livejournal.com]

I find attitudes like that generally come from brats who don't really have Asperger's (and are usually self diagnosed via wikipedia), but like to tell people that they do so people will excuse their douchebag, annoying behavior because, "Oh, I can't help it!"

Same goes for ADD/ADHD.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that was my thought as well. Same with dyslexia, half the kids out there who can't spell claim to have it. It's not just an excuse! It's an actual, real thing!

[bricriu.livejournal.com]

There's a world of difference between "not fitting in" because it's how you purposely present yourself to make yourself feel somehow unique or to stand out and "not fitting in" because there's genuinely something...off...about you that you can't explain and others can't really explain either.

I fall into the latter category, and I try my DAMNEST to hide it and appear 'normal'. I don't feel abnormal or off or anything, but other people tend to have that reaction to me. People cross the street to avoid me when I'm just out on a walk. I have no idea why, I don't think I'm doing anything odd or that I look weird, but something about me seems to make other people uncomfortable in a face to face situation.

I hate having to admit that I need medication to function at work or to drive (I am, quite frankly, dangerously distracted without it for the latter activity), I hate not being able to 'read' other people during conversation and not knowing how to hold myself, act, react, or empathize.
I really can't empathize with other people very well. I know what I'm supposed to say and how I'm supposed to react and, at 31, can now fake it to an ALMOST convincing level, but I don't 'get it', so to speak.
I just watch how normal people react and emulate.
I have no idea how to read facial expressions in conversation, which is why I do so much better in an online situation: It removes all of the things I can't/don't know how to recognize or process and strips it away to just plain words, which I understand.

For as 'abnormal' as people who BRAG about things like that pretend to be, they really have no concept of what it's like to actually be that way.
It's not funny, quirky, unique, interesting or anything of the sort, it's fucking frustrating.
It makes relationships with family, friends, or anyone extremely difficult and much more prone to failure than it would for an otherwise normally wired person.
I know I get told that I come off as 'cold' in person because of all of the personal space issues, distractability issues and inability to read body language. It's not that I don't care, I just don't get it on a level beyond textbook understanding.

And I sure as hell don't expect anyone else to tolerate, accept or put up with my behavior if it's odd or inappropriate, it's not their fault I'm wired wrong. I either act 'normal' or remove myself from the situation if possible.
I'm very thankful my parents had the same attitude when I was a little kid and would act out in public.
As an adult, if someone points it out, I try to make a conscious effort to stop whatever I'm doing that's "weird", but that doesn't always work, sometimes I just have to leave.

People who brag about being an "aspie" or having ADD/ADHD make me want to do violent things to them.
It's even more insulting when they use it to excuse asshole-ish behavior or laziness.

That shit's not fun for the people who actually have it.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

You hit the nail right on the head. I can't see wishing it onto anyone. (And I'm sorry you have to deal with it yourself!)

[bricriu.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that person who posted the "I WISH THEY WERE ALLLL ASPIES!" thing linked...oh my god.../rage

TBH, I tend to view anyone who calls themselves an "aspie" as one of the fakers I was going on about in my last comment.

As for dealing with it, I credit my parents for NOT taking the route of "something is wrong with him: EVERYONE MUST CATER TO OUR SPECIAL CHILD!" but rather, "this is the way he is, and it's normal for him." AND knowing that that sometimes meant that I couldn't (or they couldn't) always do the things that parents with 'normal' kids could do.

I credit that with why I learned how to pass for a 'normal person' as an adult.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I'm totally with you. My mother took me to years of "physical therapy" (sort of) for dyslexia, back when people didn't believe such things actually helped. I went from being in the slow classes/unable to read to the advanced classes in a couple years. I'm so thankful for that now, I can't imagine not being able to read! I learned lots of other tricks too (like I always wear my watch on my left, so when someone tells me left or right I can tell easy which way they mean without an embarrassing long hesitation). Lots of it I don't remember now, it was training for my eyes/brain to learn to process things in a way I could use. I'd be a different person today without that. I don't even want to imagine.

[bricriu.livejournal.com]

Dyslexia is so weird. I don't go so far as to say I have it, but with certain numbers (1, 3, and 9) and ONLY those numbers, I will transpose them if they're next to other numbers.

13/31, 19/91, that sort of thing, but it's only with those three specific numbers. It doesn't manifest with any number that doesn't include 1, 3 or 9 and no issues with letters.

I also can't add 9+5 or 9+4 without counting on my fingers or a calculator. I know 9+3 is 12 and 9+6 is 15, but CANNOT do 9+5 or 9+4 in my head.

Nobody could ever figure that out.

[voidmagus.livejournal.com]

"...but CANNOT do 9+5 or 9+4 in my head." Holy crap that is weird :P

This whole topic reminds me of Deaf communities. My wife has a close friend with Usher Syndrome (genetic, degenerative vision/hearing), who works for non-profits helping deaf/blind kids. She's told us about these communities, entire neighbhorhoods where the population lacks a sense of hearing. They have a variety of adaptive technology, but overall embrace the impairment. If it is suggested to them that not having any hearing is a disability, they get enraged. Some apparently consider such a suggestion as fighting words. It blows my mind.

But back on the topic of Asperger's...It was suggested as a possible explanation when I was young as to why I had significant trouble with social situations. I long ago showed my problems are of an entirely different nature. Namely, I have a high intelligence (99.7th percentile), but due to some factors in my childhood, I express hyperalertness and paranoia. It is unlikely I would be hyperalert (and thereby, far less paranoid) if I weren't as intelligent. Because of this, my wife and I have discussed at considerable length...I don't know that I'd want my kid to be a genius. I know I can avoid those childhood factors for my own kids if I had any, but from my own experience I know that the difficulties presented there, from instabilities in higher intelligence ranges typically introduces some disorder. Given that consternation, I really don't understand how anyone can wish such a thing as autism-spectrum disorders on any child. My social awkwardness as a child was just that - awkwardness, and impatience dealing with people who weren't as quick on the uptake as I. Being a statistical outlier gets you mocked as a kid, and that just tweaked my paranoia to get a disproportionate response. I wouldn't wish that on a kid, much less a considerably more severe disorder that impacts social & public interaction for the rest of their life.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I've heard that same thing about some deaf folks, that some parents are upset if their kids can hear. Boggles me.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Huh, wow, that's really interesting and strange. For me, it's a lot more directions. My family used to joke that I could get lost in a one room schoolhouse, but it's true. I've gotten lost in a straight hallway. Directions just... 'flip' isn't the right word, they just spin around in my head. I could turn 180 degrees without realize it and walk in the direction I started in. It's pretty scary going to new places. I avoid malls or other places with big parking lots as much as I can, because finding my car is a literal nightmare (not being able to find my car is one of my most common nighttime nightmares!).

[sahn.livejournal.com]

I came across these two blog posts (written by the same person) today and it reminded me of your post.

http://www.celebrationgeneration.com/blog/2011/11/04/aspergers-you-can%E2%80%99t-cure-%E2%80%9Cawesome%E2%80%9D/

http://porterhouselife.com/?p=39

At the beginning of one of the posts, she says she's talking specifically about high-functioning aspergers.

She says, "Aspergers is only considered a 'disorder' because the NTs don’t get us, and they're currently the majority. If you plopped a bunch of aspies down on our own island somewhere (or city, or whatever), we’d get by just fine... I prefer to think of Aspergers more like mini super powers. My aspie super powers include a ridiculous IQ, internal GPS/mental mapping, and extra sensitive touch, hearing, taste, smell, and sight senses. Other Aspies have a wide variety of other super powers, all of which are really cool."

She does talk about how hard it was growing up with aspergers, but says that it was hard mainly due to being misunderstood and bullied. And in that way she compares it to being gay (I mean in the sense that aspergers is not really a disability, it's just different, but it sucks because other people don't understand it and think the behavior associated with aspergers is totally unacceptable).

I found that interesting, especially to consider that maybe aspergers really isn't that bad except for the bullying and being misunderstood by others. (In that sense it would be different from other diseases which cause physical problems or disabilities.) And I chuckled at the "You can't cure awesome" catchphrase.

Anyway, I guess you could be excited about (high-functioning) aspergers if you thought of it as a mini-superpower, and you valued the positive abilities that are sometimes associated with aspergers above the social difficulties that are also associated with aspergers. It's like being one of the X-men.

[sahn.livejournal.com]

I should say that I don't really know much about aspergers. But here's also something interesting from the wikipedia article about aspergers about why someone might be excited about it.

"Some researchers have argued that AS can be viewed as a different cognitive style, not a disorder or a disability,[10] and that it should be removed from the standard Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, much as homosexuality was removed.[108] In a 2002 paper, Simon Baron-Cohen wrote of those with AS, 'In the social world, there is no great benefit to a precise eye for detail, but in the worlds of maths, computing, cataloguing, music, linguistics, engineering, and science, such an eye for detail can lead to success rather than failure.'"

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I read a (fictional) book based on that idea. Unfortunately I didn't make it through the whole book, but it was an interesting idea.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the links!