No saints here, no matter the day.

[thistlechaser]

More often than I would like, I get annoyed at someone's grammatical mistake, then I question if I'm actually correct or not. A lot of it is second-guessing myself, sometimes it's that language has evolved since I learned a rule, and sometimes I really am wrong. (Happily that third one is the least common, but it's the second one that annoys me most. NO YOU CANNOT HAS A CHEESEBURGER. NO YOU DO NOT KNOW MY "FEELS".)

The use of "latter" comes up now and again. I learned it to mean the second item in a list.

"Beef, pork, or chicken? I'll take the latter, pork."

However, sometimes times I see people using it to mean the last item in the list.

"Beef, pork, or chicken? I'll take the latter, chicken."

Latter does also mean later/last in a time-sense. From Merriam-Webster.com:

Definition of LATTER
1
a : belonging to a subsequent time or period : more recent [the latter stages of growth]
b : of or relating to the end [in their latter days]
c : recent, present [affected by latter calamities]
2
: of, relating to, or being the second of two groups or things or the last of several groups or things referred to [of ham and beef the latter meat is cheaper today]

So in this case, I pretty sure I'm right. Using it to mean "chicken" in the "Beef, pork, or chicken" list is a mistake. It seems an easy mistake to make though, since in non-lists it could mean the last/latest thing.

Any opinions on this? :)

Comments

[tersa.livejournal.com]

My opinion is that it means the last item in a list. When the list is only two items long, then it will be the second one by default, and therefore meet your definition. But that's a difference not unlike that between dolphins and porpoise.

But /also/ my opinion is that I wouldn't use "latter" for a list with more than two items in it, so it wouldn't even be a question to begin with, in my world/usage... :)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

But /also/ my opinion is that I wouldn't use "latter" for a list with more than two items in it, so it wouldn't even be a question to begin with, in my world/usage... :)

Same here. Today (and previously) the person used it for a list with more than two items though, which is what sparked this whole thing.

[tersa.livejournal.com]

Well, in that case, I'd probably mean former as the first one, latter as the last, and say 'second' for the second one.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that makes sense. Somehow I missed half of a sentence of the definition I pasted in (no idea how I accomplished that...).

of, relating to, or being the second of two groups or things or the last of several groups or things referred to

So I think I'm the one in the wrong here!

On the plus side: At least I learned of my error in my own blog instead of in some random stranger's!

[tersa.livejournal.com]

Haha. And I didn't point that out because I thought you were focusing on the first half of the -or- clause.

On the plus side: At least I learned of my error in my own blog instead of in some random stranger's!

Indeed! :)

[sahn.livejournal.com]

Looking at the definition, it seems the correct usage would be to use it to refer to the last item in the list. "or the last of several groups or things referred to"

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

... Oh. Huh. That's funny, I read the definition, copy/pasted it in, and read it again after posting, and I missed the second half of that sentence each time. It's kind of strangely written though. I'm reading that sentence as meaning "If there are two things, it's the second. If there are multiple things, it's the last one." Why is the first part needed? Shouldn't it always be the last thing? (The second of two items is still the last.)

[sahn.livejournal.com]

Personally, I never use former or latter. I find it a little too formal and a little annoying. Whenever I read former or latter, I always have to refer back to the list to remember the order of the items. I would prefer the writer just spell it out. For example, take the example "between beef and pork, I prefer the former." I think "between beef and pork, I prefer beef," is much, much clearer.

[kamalloy.livejournal.com]

I pretty much only hear "former" and "latter" used to refer to two things, which makes the distinction easy. However, if I did hear it used to refer to more than two things, I'd assume "latter" was referring to the last item. I think dictionary definition #2 supports this line of thinking.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

I think you're right! Somehow I missed the second half of one of the sentences ("...or the last of several groups or things") and so I'm in the wrong here.

[evilgrayson.livejournal.com]

I was always taught that while 'latter' can be used with a longer list than two items, it's improper to do so. There should be a former and a latter - any more than that and it's the wrong word.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

That would work for me, but if MW is correct, it can be used for a longer list as well. :/ It's going to take some time for me to wrap my brain around this.

[evilgrayson.livejournal.com]

It's the difference between 'correct' and 'clumsy'. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.

BTW, the Oxford English Dictionary agrees with me. While they admit that lists longer than two happen, they say it is not acceptable to refer to the last of a longer list as the latter in good English writing style.

Then again, you Americans insert 'of' in the strangest of places, turn 'ive' into 'e' in alternative, and still can't spell or pronounce aluminium. :)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

It's the difference between 'correct' and 'clumsy'. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.

Very good point!

I'm with you on some American/British English disagreements. I use dialogue over dialog. Dialog looks too short and slang-ish to me.

[socksofjello.livejournal.com]

I've lived in the US all my life and I don't think I've ever seen "dialog". Dialogue is how I've always known to spell it. Maybe I'd get beat over the head if I needed to use a style guide, but...

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Huh interesting! I've only rarely not seen it "dialog". Maybe it's a regional thing...

[doxxxicle.livejournal.com]

Living in North America, albeit Canada, I've only ever seen "dialog" used to refer to a popup window on a computer screen. When referring to a conversation, I've only ever seen it spelled as "dialogue".

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Agreed. "Dialog" for the computer popup window, "dialogue" for conversation.

[gconnor.livejournal.com]

To me it only makes sense for two-item lists. If there are only two items, they are the former and the latter.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Yeah, exactly. But apparently it can be correctly used on more, too...

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I use it when there are only two items to choose from--if I have a list longer than that I say, "the last one."

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Yep, same. I personally wouldn't want to use it on a list of more than two.