Can't we all just get along? (FFXI)

[thistlechaser]

The big ranting post from whren makes me sigh and shake my head. This whole "Japanese players are evil, the whole game is tilted in favor of the Japanese players, etc" issue annoys me so much.

Am I the only person who believes that that we, the NA players, are in fact more like "guests" on their game? They played it for how long before it was released in English? A year? More? The game was created in Japan, yes? It was released there first, released in the Japanese language. English was secondary. It's quite clear where the priorities are.

Is that unfair? Maybe, but what in life is fair? Hollywood releases blockbuster movies in English first -- is that fair to non-English speaking countries?

It really annoys me when people make that post like the one last week. The subject line was something like "Wake up, people, /checking without asking is no longer rude! This is OUR game now!". What right do the new kids on the block have to come in and try to force change onto the older players?

I guess for me it comes down to a MUSH-like mindset: If I joined a new MUSH, I would never, ever, ever expect the game to be changed by me. Even if I joined with 100 of my closest friends, I would not expect things to change for me. Why do NA players act differently? Swarm in, want to take over and change everything? Sure, we pay membership money as well, but that gives us the right to play on the game, not take it over and change it however we want.

(I'm posting this in my LJ instead of one of the FFXI comm groups because the majority of random stranger NA players will disagree with me. I don't care about them, I'm interested in what people I know and respect think.)

Comments

[wanderingscribe.livejournal.com]

I read the posts and even as a non-player of the game, I'm pretty disappointed in the NC LS's behavior. Yes, they've been playing the game longer, but wouldn't it be nice to share once in a while? It *is* just a game.

It seems to me that this should be less about Japanese players in general and more about the players that abuse the system with dirty tactics and get away with it. That's just like the kid on the playgroud who makes up a game and keeps adding more rules to benefit themselves during it until no one wants to play. How selfish.

Americans may be the 'guests', but when the 'hosts' are rotten, it kills the experience for everyone. Although, in this case, the Americans there make a very nice example of what to do. Really. Biting the hand that feeds much? [/end sarcasm]

No one's a winner in situations like this. Everyone sucks.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Agreed on both parts, especially the last sentence.

If people have an issue with that LS's behavior, they should say "X LS sucks!" not "Japanese players suck!". There's a difference between the two...

It seems to me that this should be less about Japanese players in general and more about the players that abuse the system with dirty tactics and get away with it.

That's what I believe as well, but the angry NA players think that GMs favor the Japanese players, so the "abuse" (if there is any) never gets fairly settled.

It's such a messy situation...

[wanderingscribe.livejournal.com]

Yeah...and woah, my spelling in that comment really *sucked*. XD

You know, I agree with that one poster who said that they should keep reporting abuse to the GMs. Even if there's favoritism, they can't ignore all those reports, especially if some of them are about GMs that are biased and not doing anything.

[gconnor.livejournal.com]

I guess it should really be up to the owners/operators of the game, whether they want to change things to suit the new market they are trying to sell to, or keep it the same.

On a Mush you have the same level of control, but there's no financial incentive to sell/compete/market/change or whatever... there are just the ideals and goals of the operators.

In general I agree with you that the new kid on the block should be polite, and confine himself to polite requests instead of making demands or going against the grain to be annoying. But the money issues might skew things in one direction or another...

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

If the grumbling NA players are to be believed, then the makers of the game like it the way it is (Japanese people having an advantage). Supposedly Japanese GMs have more power than NA GMs, and NA players get the short end of the stick... (Seeing as this comes from disgruntled NA people, I don't know how much I believe it.)

Agreed that the financial end of it makes things trickier!

[firebyrd.livejournal.com]

I know I don't play the game, but since I consider myself a pretty hard-core gamer, I'd like to think I have a bit of perspective.

I don't quite agree with either perspective. If the ranter is portraying things as they are, there are certain Japanese players that are breaking the rules, which are being enforced only on the North American players. If that's the case, that's screwed up.

The game isn't Japanese, made by Japanese, only for Japanese, that they just happen to let other people on. The game was intended to be released throughout the world for anyone in any of the countries it's released in to play. In addition, Square-Enix did the very novel thing of putting Japanese and North American players on the same servers, supposedly to enhance the playing experience and perhaps even foster friendship between the the two places.

So. Life isn't fair. However, I don't see why the advantage that the Japanese players should get should extend past the fact that since they got the game sooner, they got to start playing sooner, thus got to higher levels and such sooner. That shouldn't extend to letting them break the rules. Personally, I find the behavior of a lot of these people very rude. When I played MUDs, if someone had done something like this, I would have been pissed. Even if it's not directly in the rules or not, it's unsportsmanlike.

There are reasons I don't play these sorts of games anymore (and MUDs and MMORPGs are just the same, with the difference of pretty graphics. I've played both, I know). Aside from hack and slash being boring after a while and most players being complete morons, this sort of crap bugs me. I'd rather be in an environment that enables me to do the whole cooperative storytelling thing. :)

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

If the ranter is portraying things as they are, there are certain Japanese players that are breaking the rules, which are being enforced only on the North American players

I wonder if there really is a difference in the power of a NA GM compared to the power of a Japanese GM or if it's more like "you get a different answer depending on which MUSH wizard you ask"...

Square-Enix did the very novel thing of putting Japanese and North American players on the same servers

That's interesting to know! I hadn't known that usually they use different servers for different groups.

That shouldn't extend to letting them break the rules.

Agreed. Rules should apply to both sides. It gets more complex when you factor in the unspoken (eh, unwritten?) rules, like not /checking someone without asking...

Thanks for the comment!

[firebyrd.livejournal.com]

I don't think something like the /checking (whatever that is) would be considered a rule, since it's not in the TOS or whatever. I think that would fall under etiquette. That is a different thing altogether. However, given the age group that something like this draws, I don't know that there's a whole lot that can be done about it, as American teenagers can be pretty disdainful of politeness.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

(/checking lets you see all the armor and weapons a person is wearing.)

I was thinking of it as a "social rule", which would fall under etiquette, yeah.

[kirbyk.livejournal.com]

I think both of the extreme viewpoints is wrong.

My philosophy basically goes: once I'm paying the monthly fee, I'm a player. I've paid my money. I'm not a second class citizen. Neither is anyone else. We're both citizens.

I'm not a guest, I'm a subscriber. I'm a member.

I think the behavior of some high level linkshells (regardless of if they're in US, Japan, Canada, or the United Arab Emerites) is deplorable. I think it's bad form to prevent others from getting to do certain content, just for the sake of their own selfishness. Of course this engenders negative feelings. They're being schoolyard bullies, and Squaresoft should tweak the game rules to stop it. Just move the monsters to a 12 hour spawn, and poof, problem solved.

I think the idea of check being rude is just bizarre. I didn't enjoy getting the constant check messages, so guess what? I used the _in game filter_ to turn off the messages. Problem solved.

There's still a lot of politeness that makes the game run smoothly without making up points of order solely for the sake of making things less newbie friendly. Things like respecting place in line for BCNM fights, and not stealing kills someone is clearly going after, and not camping right on top of another group, and so forth. This kind of etiquette is important.

And, IMO, forcing a monster into a particular timezone is a massive breach of etiquette. If I were President of Squaresoft, I'd issue a warning once, and then ban players for doing this.

99% of Japanese players do not do this, of course. And the ranty post is totally off base.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Interesting thoughts, thanks for the comment!

Just move the monsters to a 12 hour spawn, and poof, problem solved.

And cut the drop rate by 50%. That'd work, yeah!

I think the idea of check being rude is just bizarre.

I don't understand it, but I don't have a problem respecting something I don't understand. A few people have said Japanese people consider it rude because their checked message is worded something like "Name peers hard at you" or "looks you over closely" or something along those lines, but I don't buy that. Unless the makers of the game had intended /check not to be used by random strangers, why would they make the emit offensive? (And if they didn't want it used, then they could have added some sort of a /check-check. "Name wants to check you. Allow it: Y/N?".) It's just very odd!

99% of Japanese players do not do this, of course. And the ranty post is totally off base.

Yep. If the ranter had been upset with "X Japanese LS" instead of "Japaness players" I would have been somewhat less upset.

[loneguardian.livejournal.com]

I don't understand the animocity toward Japanese players. v.v Honestly, every single one I've met has been nice. But then, I don't talk to too many Japanese players. ._.;;;

Competition and anger toward a certain LS doesn't warrant statements in bold and flashy colors that an entire culture sucks or that we deserve to take over or whatnot. That's like saying we in CTY suck because some English-speaking morons who have nothing to do with us are causing hell elsewhere (say, training half the mobs in CN to zone on top of a bunch of XPing parties). Whren just lost a couple respect points in my book with that rant, honestly. v.v I thought she was above classifying people under a stereotype. Oh well.

I'm still (Japanese) (Party) OK! Even if some of the highest level ones are being asshats.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Exactly. It's such a sad thing...

And hi! Missed seeing you on-game lately! (Or maybe our times are just not matching up.)

[glaciation.livejournal.com]

Whren does a good job initially of focusing her rage at the appropriate place (New Company, who by all accounts behave like gangsters), and only in the end has her total breakdown and starts randomly bashing as an apparent theraputic. I think I'd take Whren's post with a grain of salt and recognize the point (a select group of players who happen to be Japanese are blocking the rest of the game from a set of content), and refrain from considering the rest of it the hate speech it could be interpreted as.

I consider the /check thing a bizarre fetish, incidentally. If it bugs someone to have another player look at their equipment, turn off the notifications. It's easy, and having a pissyfit over it because you can't deal with turning the notice off is inappropriate. People are too quick to get offended over trivial stuff in MMO's.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks!

[sylf.livejournal.com]

My big qualm with the whole "/checking is rude" deal has to do with how it's a function in the game that can be used.

Take, for example, the lotting system - a large percentage of Japanese players tend to lot on any item that drops instead of letting the computer auto-lot them. Their reasoning for this, from what I have heard, is that it's a function of the game that can and should be exploited.

On the other hand, we have the /check system. Now I know that the Japanese text is " stares at you intently" or something along those lines, but the same thing applies - it's a function that's been programmed into the game and can/should be exploited. The fact that many players get upset about one command but not the other is a double standard, and that irritates me.

I've been told that it's even possible to turn off that notifier in the Chat Filters menu, as well - if it's such a big deal to some people then they should exercise that option.

My other complaint about issues with the /check command is in regards to the pride of some players and how it seems to be stepped on when a 'lower' character examines them with the check command. I've actually had another PC /slap me and get angry because I used the /check command on him (remember Cecilantes? it was him). As far as I'm concerned, if you're offended by a simple "/em examines you" statement by someone else, then *you're* the one that's got a problem - not the person checking you. This is a game, after all - people need to not be so stuck up in it.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

My big qualm with the whole "/checking is rude" deal has to do with how it's a function in the game that can be used.

That part confused me, too. I would have thought that if /check wasn't to be freely used, it would be something more like /requestcheck, then the person you're checking would get the message "name wants to check you", and could agree to it or not...

the lotting system - a large percentage of Japanese players tend to lot on any item that drops instead of letting the computer auto-lot them.

I'm really, really surprised more people don't do this! The majority of my time on the game was spent partying with one (NA) static party, and we always lotted on anything and everything. It's very odd to not be lotting on stuff (and I can't say I like it much, since it's not random/as fair).

I've been told that it's even possible to turn off that notifier in the Chat Filters menu

I've not tried it, but I believe BK has his set.

So, while I'm still puzzled, I agree with you. Maybe it's like one of the other comment-leavers said: It's all a big myth (or a joke). Maybe Japanese people don't care about it at all...

I've actually had another PC /slap me and get angry because I used the /check command on him

Ugh! One of my very first days playing, I tried the command and got the exact same result. (I hadn't even really been wanting to see the person, I just wanted to see what /check did!) It ingrained into me that /checking without asking is bad.

[isildur.livejournal.com]

This is not a Japanese thing, but it becomes one through a couple of unfortunate circumstances.

This is standard behavior for the 'uberguilds' of a MMO. In fact, it's relatively inoffensive compared to some of the behavior in EQ.

But it becomes a JP vs NA problem when:

1) GMs enforce rules inconsistently between NA and JP groups -- I have no reason to doubt Whren's account of the difference in GM response, and it's not the first time I've heard of a double standard of enforcement (mostly re: fishbots and gilsellers).

2) One group has a sense of entitlement regarding the game. In this case, the JP linkshells were fighting some of these fights months before any NA linkshell was able to attempt it. They most likely feel like they 'own' the fight and its rewards, and consider the NA linkshells upstarts who are 'stealing' their content.

One common mistake people who wish to take a moderate point of view seem to make is to believe that the JP players are not rude assholes. This, I think, is because we *see* the NA rude assholes. We know what they're saying, and how rude it is. We have no idea if that string of kanji and hiragana is rude or vulgar. But the truth is, people are people everywhere.

All this story has shown me is that high-level uberguilds in Japan are just as much filled with assholes as high-level domestic uberguilds.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

1) GMs enforce rules inconsistently between NA and JP groups -- I have no reason to doubt Whren's account of the difference in GM response, and it's not the first time I've heard of a double standard of enforcement (mostly re: fishbots and gilsellers).

I wonder if Japanese players tend to think the same thing? That NA players are favored by the GMs?

We have no idea if that string of kanji and hiragana is rude or vulgar.

True, luckily or unfortunately!

[chrysoula.livejournal.com]

1.) I think the '/check is rude to the Japanese' thing is a myth, possibly perpetuated by a few Japanese who like to fuck with people. I have seen discussions that indicate that 90% of all players, JP or NA, don't give a damn if somebody checks them once. Some of those may not like being checked repeatedly, but a lot of 'em have the messages turned off.

2.) I don't feel like a guest on their server. I love the FF games as much as a Japanese person might, and Square sold the game to me as well as to them. As Kirby said, I'm a member, of a community.

It's very easy for distaste based on bad experiences to become AOE attacks beyond language boundaries, because the language barrier is so thick. It's like being blind: you don't know what they talk about casually, you don't know what they rant about, what they love, what they hate.

I've seen a number of people call for language-separated servers. I've seen a lot of people claim that Square's big bold move was a mistake. I... still like it. I like the possibility of seeing past that veil, even a little bit. And I like the chance for everything I do to improve the relations on both sides. *shrug* But a lot of Japanese are fuckers, pure and simple. More NA are just plain uneducated or dumb than fuckers, I think. That's the different cultural stuff coming out, I think.

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

1.) I think the '/check is rude to the Japanese' thing is a myth, possibly perpetuated by a few Japanese who like to fuck with people.

That would be very interesting! (And sort of funny.)

I've seen a number of people call for language-separated servers. I've seen a lot of people claim that Square's big bold move was a mistake. I... still like it.

I've thought about this issue more over the weekend, and I agree. I like it as well. I like being able to interact (sort of) with Japanese speaking people, and I think it makes for a better game.

[caillen.livejournal.com]

I'd agree. It isn't always pushing to get your way but to try to adapt and coexist on a plane of existence that can be beneficial to both (i sound like my biology teacher :D)

I've always thought the sign of maturity of a person is when he faces these things that he does not know and try to adapt. Child-mind will lash out if it doesn't go his way, adult will look at it from the perspective of the other player.


Baaaaah i don't wanna preach ;o; I just wanted to agree ^^;;

[thistle-chaser.livejournal.com]

Makes sense to me! And you didn't sound like you were preaching, no worries. :)